CHRIS HOWELL Album

[Chris Howell]

Dear Members

I have finally started uploading what will be thousands of Black and White scans from negatives loaned by Jorgen Lonn of Sweden for use on Ship Spotting and Ships Nostalgia.
Unfortunately most do not have dates/locations or the photographers name.
His system is to put details of the ship on the negative packets.
Anyone who has any informtaion or recognises their work please comment or send a PM.
Finally I will not be putting long histories as I do not have the time, but a quick and easy starting point for more information is MIRIMAR ships index found thru Google.
Hope you like the oldies !

[Guest]

Hi Chris

Is this the same Jorgen Lonn who was recently banned from this site for copyright infringement - see thread @ http://www.shipspotting.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=thread&topic_id=7388&forum=1&post_id=40740#40740

If it is the same guy, this may be a 'back door' way of him having more copyright infringed photographs posted to this site. Would recommend that you are sure that he has copyright before you act as his conduit through to the site.

Regards

[Chris Howell]

I have had some feed back that Jorgen Lonn is banned from the site for stealing photos or more correctly putting photographs without credit on this site.
I want to make it clear he and I recently swapped negatives and slides, therefore as I now have the original negatives the copyright is mine, just as the copyright is his with the slides I have sent him.
As mentioned his system only has ship details, this is because before the internet we would all have kept any negatives, slides for personal use so the photographer was not really relevant.My system was worse just filed under company with the ships name A-Z as I never expected to be posting on a site like this..
Please advise what members feel before posting any more negatives I have swapped.

[Cornelia Klier]

Hello Chris Howell,

good to see you commenting here !

I am generally fond of exchanging photos, although nowadays mostly done by e-mail and attachments.

Jorgen Lonn has asked me to do so by CD, and we agreed on that he send me CD with photos of MSC-ships and Reefers and so, I received them. Very nice of sending them to me !!
But they are not his, all belong to "Collection Chris Howell" so I was a bit surprised, why he makes not clear, that photos are not by him, but by someone else

Of course, fine if you agree with that. But I personally do not want to see same happening with my own photos, just sending them to someone - I don't know whom, photos ending up at some forum "collection Jorgen Lonn" while they are my copyright. I don't have any problem sharing photos also for use on websites, if someone asks me, they come with "copyright Cornelia Klier" and then it's fine. Exceptions only if I am getting asked !

I have written a mail to Jorgen Lonn about that, but he sort of hesistates to agree with my terms and instead forwards me a mail that was meant to be sent to someone else.
Here is the text, and he should acknowledge what it is about !

"Hello Jorgen,

thanks alot for your mail.

I have sent the CD's today. The photos are for you, your personal collection. They are not for being posted anywhere else, or to exchange with other members, or upload on any other photos. If someone want to use one of my photos, please give my e-mail address [email protected].
For any use of my photos, if you show on a forum or such, it is neccessary to put "photo by Cornelia Klier", not "Collection of Jorgen Lonn", because you do not hold the copyright of the photos.

You can show photos on shipping-enthusiasts forums or such, but NOT for commercial use !

Greetings,
Cornelia

I think, we all have the same hobby and such, but we should stick to fairplay, as well and not use members good will for making money behind their backs and such !

I wait, whether the outcome is positive or negative and will report.

[Chris Howell]

Dear Cornelia

Firstly I have to say you have an album well worth looking at, I love to see properly composed photographs a little attention to detail makes all the difference.
As I have stated in my profile I have no problem with people downloading my photos for private use but of course someone should not download from this site and then send on for commercial gain.
My belief is if you own the original neg/slide it is yours to use as you like. With collections such as mine, Jorgen and others who have swapped over 30 years since I was a boy very often the photographer is unknown.
I still believe most members want to see old ships with the site being swamped with modern shipping, and most will only look at the scans on their computer or download for their own collection.
 
I

[Guest]

My understanding of British Copyright Law is that possession of a slide certainly does not amount to copyright being held - UNLESS the original copyright holder gives up that specific right.

For example, Mr A swaps a slide with Mr B but doesn't give copyright to Mr B - therefore copyright stays with Mr A. In my opinion that photograph should NOT be posted to this site as it infringes Mr A's copyright.
However if Mr A specifically signs over copyright to Mr B then there isn't a problem in posting to the site as Mr B is then the copyright holder.

From what has been said about Jorgen is that he has perhaps assumed he owns copyright purely on the basis of possession and that's not how it works in the UK.

Personally I am tired of Emails from Jorgen asking for swaps - he must send out thousands of these unsolicited requests.

Regards

[Chris Howell]

Re Steve's comments
1. My feeling is since the post made by myself are from New Zealand which has different copyright laws, British copyright is not applicable.
As a professional photographer it has been the bane of my life and others in NZ that if you do not sign an actual agreement then if you have possesion of a print, slide or negative the holder can do as they see fit. There is no legal remedy even with copyright being noted for example on a print.
As to swaps with Jorgen, for example some are from Malcolm Cranfield who has no problem with these being posted.
As a moderator please advise if these latest scans should be deleted.

[Guest]

Derek sands wrote:
Hi Chris,

The site has always been cautious regarding copyright.
Since we had a massive claim against the site which we could not have met.
Fortunately the photographer allowed us to get away with just deleting the images after he realised that we took the matter seriously.
With an international site it is difficult to equate copyright as I being based in the UK have applied the Uk copyright law.
I am not saying I am an expert and the law is complex.
But basically the photographer is the copyright holder and in UK law it exists also for 70 years after his/her death.
Now that the site is owned in the USA I am not sure how this will affect matters and will have to make enquiries before I do anything else.

Sorry I cannot make this decision alone now.

best regards
Derek

Hi Derek

I would have thought the Site's FAQ on this matter is clear enough - @ http://www.shipspotting.com/modules/xoopsfaq/index.php?cat_id=16#q23

"You can upload any ship photo that you have taken. Do not upload photos from any other source as this could result in a breach of copyright, UNLESS you have explicit permission from another photographer to post their photographs to a web site that is in the Public Domain. State the name and permission given by that photographer in the Description box."

Unless of course that FAQ is for some reason 'out of date'?

Regards

[Guest]

CJHBLUFF wrote:
Re Steve's comments
1. My feeling is since the post made by myself are from New Zealand which has different copyright laws, British copyright is not applicable.
As a professional photographer it has been the bane of my life and others in NZ that if you do not sign an actual agreement then if you have possesion of a print, slide or negative the holder can do as they see fit. There is no legal remedy even with copyright being noted for example on a print.
As to swaps with Jorgen, for example some are from Malcolm Cranfield who has no problem with these being posted.
As a moderator please advise if these latest scans should be deleted.

I beg to differ - British Copyright is pertinent to any infringement of a British Citizens photographs.

As to New Zealand Law - I think you will find that it runs almost hand in glove with Great Britain's Statutes and is covered by New Zealand's Copyright Act
1994. Compare the guidance given by the Copyright Council of New Zealand @ http://www.copyright.org.nz/viewInfosheet.php?sheet=340

I am seriously considering enrolling with the UK Copyright Service who offer the service of pursuing copyright infringement claims on an International basis - check out http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/protect/p16_photography_copyright

But of course as you are a ' Professional Photographer' I expect you know this anyway, shame that us 'amateurs' have had to draw attention to the matter.

Regards

[Gerolf Drebes]

Hi Steve,
I cannot believe that copyright rules are so ridiculous, when a negative has changed owner.
I acquired a batch of negatives from the wife of the the guy who had run airfoto Malacca without any note that I have now the copyright. As he is now dead and his wife did not mention anything to keep the copyright. I think the negs are now my copyright.
I exchanged as well several negatives with other international shiplovers and in any case both of us were clear, that the copyright will swap with the negative. And I made several copies of those vessel to exchange copies.
I exchanged as well negatives with J

[Tony des Landes]

I was always under the impression that the purpose and spirit of copyright laws was to prevent the illegal exploitation of someone elses work for profit.

That is only right and I don't think anyone would disagree with that.

Does that mean that if I purchase a photo of a ship, that I can't show it to anyone for fear of breaching copyright. If I buy a book does that mean I can't lend it to someone. That is in effect all that is happening here, members are showing photos of ships to others to enjoy. There is no sinister motive other than a passion for a hobby that some want to share with others.

I also don't see why this site doesn't have a disclaimer that it cannot accept responsibility for postings that are in breach of copyright. If there is a complaint, and it is found to be valid, then simply remove the photo.

Regards

Tony d

[Gerolf Drebes]

Well spoken Tony !!
Gerolf

[Hans Neren]

Tony D  """""If I buy a book does that mean I can't lend it to someone."""""
Of Course, but you cant publish again on the Internet  in your name.

[Guest]

tonyd wrote:
I was always under the impression that the purpose and spirit of copyright laws was to prevent the illegal exploitation of someone elses work for profit.

That is only right and I don't think anyone would disagree with that.

Does that mean that if I purchase a photo of a ship, that I can't show it to anyone for fear of breaching copyright. If I buy a book does that mean I can't lend it to someone. That is in effect all that is happening here, members are showing photos of ships to others to enjoy. There is no sinister motive other than a passion for a hobby that some want to share with others.

I also don't see why this site doesn't have a disclaimer that it cannot accept responsibility for postings that are in breach of copyright. If there is a complaint, and it is found to be valid, then simply remove the photo.

Regards

Tony d

Copyright also ensures that someone cannot pass off another's work as their own.

Ridiculous argument to try and bring a comparison with written work as that is covered under different legislation.

Of course the Site should have a disclaimer but at the same time it should have guidance to its members which it does in the FAQs and again I will repeat them here :

"You can upload any ship photo that you have taken. Do not upload photos from any other source as this could result in a breach of copyright, UNLESS you have explicit permission from another photographer to post their photographs to a web site that is in the Public Domain. State the name and permission given by that photographer in the Description box."

Gerolf - perhaps as an Admin you don't agree with the FAQ?- then perhaps you should seek to have them changed?

Regards

[Tony des Landes]

Many years ago I purchased a photo collection of ships that had visited Napier between the 1950's and 60's.

The photographer passed away several years ago, but in the meantime I posted a very small number of his photos and gave due acknowledgement.

My motivation behind it was because I thought these photos would be of interest to members, and the fact that they received far more hits than most of my own photos shows that I was correct in my belief.

I also thought this was a great tribute to a man who spent over 20 years photographing ships at Napier, and it would be such a waste of his work to keep them forever hidden away. He did it for a hobby, and knowing the man he was,I think he would have been delighted if he knew that his work would be enjoyed by people from all over the world, something that he would never have thought possible when he was taking his photos.

From my experience, some of the biggest claimants of copyright are museums etc, who seem quite happy to accept quite large sums of money for photographs that they did not take themselves. If you donate your photos to them, they usually seem to require you to relinquish your copyright as a condition of accepting your kind donation.

Regards

Tony d