Author Topic: posting historic photographs - policy question  (Read 5504 times)

Offline pieter melissen

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Re: posting historic photographs - policy question
« Reply #30 on: December 22, 2020, 09:00:29 PM »
Thanks Chas, a short answer, if I understand this correctly and literally. the download function on Shipspotting should have to be discontinued as it is soliciting a crime/infringement of copy right rules.

Offline Kyle Stubbs

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Re: posting historic photographs - policy question
« Reply #31 on: December 22, 2020, 09:51:28 PM »
Thanks Chas, a short answer, if I understand this correctly and literally. the download function on Shipspotting should have to be discontinued as it is soliciting a crime/infringement of copy right rules.

I believe that downloading of copyrighted photos is protected under various laws, depending on the country. In the British Commonwealth, "Fair Dealing" permits research and private study in a non-commercial capacity, which I believe would be the umbrella terms we are looking for. In the United States, "Fair Use" doctrine permits the same sort of use.
"Action speaks louder than words but not nearly as often." -Mark Twain

Offline Tom Walker

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Re: posting historic photographs - policy question
« Reply #32 on: December 22, 2020, 10:55:19 PM »
As this title contains 'Historical Photographs' I thought I would add a cautionary tale.

In the period 1950s-1980s my father was a photographer in business in Teignmouth (U.K).  He would take photographs of ships at the local port and because of UK Purchase Tax law was only allowed to sell to ships crews or shipping related companies.  A couple of years ago, I found a copy of one of his photos on a Dutch Coaster website, not credited to him.  All photographs sold were stamped on the reverse side with a copyright stamp but of course the act of scanning does not record the back of photographs.  I contacted the site concerned and was told that this issues was under the remit of a US company that maintained the site content.  When I contacted the US company, they said that they would change the details but only after I had sworn an affidavit in a US court.  Obviously I did not pursue this.

Experience with other sites has often worked well, usually I offer some additional info on the actual photo circumstances to show thanks.

I have several thousand photos taken by my father and myself, but not uploaded them to any site because I find that the copyright issue is too stressful to resolve should someone choose to violate it.

Even so, some photographs still find their way into books published by reputable publishers, mainly because they are wrongly advised that someone else holds the copyright.

Best regards for Christmas and the New Year, keep safe and well,

Tom

Offline ChasB46

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Re: posting historic photographs - policy question
« Reply #33 on: December 23, 2020, 12:04:26 AM »
This is supposed to be a “friendly” site for enthusiasts but we do not want to be exploited by rogues or expose the site to litigation.
Keeping things simple .. on the first website page any pictures should be small and not of a quality for copying/ selling on. Max dimension 200pxl.?
Once you login via password etc  (how long does that take?) then you can see enlarged pictures but  still not necessarily have right to copy to personal/home folder. Could be part of site rules/agreement that copying for limited personal use is permitted.   Sign up (tick box etc to confirm read. Tick does not work unless you have at least scrolled through the wording if you want to “cheat”) to Member’s /site rules to cover legal bits, protect Shipspotting.com re copyright litigation.
OR alternative option ( see 1 to 3 below)  you can internal email request to other member ..”can I have a copy of photo X for personal  VIEWING on my computer?”   If member does not want to oblige at any request ever, then they do not permit showing of their email address.
If I was asked I would happily send requestor a better quality picture for their personal VIEWING use.  THEN If a member should be found to be flouting the rules / selling on photos etc. then a complaint to site gets them wiped from login ability/banned. No future  downloads. Online guests/ newbies can read site text (which is also copyright of sender) but no more until they join/abide by rules.

For a not so friendly site there are now ways to prevent photo copying from websites. Yes, I know the backroom staff are “volunteers”. Examples
1.   Add A DMCA Badge to the site .. The DMCA offers both free and paid protection for sites. Not sure how they charge eg companies, charities , non profit making sites but if persons are discovered using images without permission (all pics on site??) the person will get threatened legal action on sites behalf.  The process apparently is automatic and immediate. A DMCA badge added on the website to act as a frightener to image thieves.
2.   Do a  Reverse Image Search .. tools available ..use a search engine to find best. This shows an alternative image/ blank page on downloading.
3.   Disable right click etc. using plug-ins. Again search engines provide options to negate copy/pasting options.  OK, can be circumvented by determined but are they going to be?

Offline Emmanuel.L

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Re: posting historic photographs - policy question
« Reply #34 on: December 23, 2020, 04:33:54 AM »
Just a small note to Pieter Melissen:  Michael Cassar ,a dear friend of mine is still a amongst the living, he is well and living in Valletta,Malta.
And may I wish you a Happy Birthday on your 73 year and whilst we are at it another wish for a Happy Christmas and a an equally Happy New Year 2021 without the cursed Corona virus.
Best regards my Friend

Emmanuel.L.(Malta)

Offline pieter melissen

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Re: posting historic photographs - policy question
« Reply #35 on: December 23, 2020, 07:52:01 AM »
Just a small note to Pieter Melissen:  Michael Cassar ,a dear friend of mine is still a amongst the living, he is well and living in Valletta,Malta.
And may I wish you a Happy Birthday on your 73 year and whilst we are at it another wish for a Happy Christmas and a an equally Happy New Year 2021 without the cursed Corona virus.
Best regards my Friend

Emmanuel.L.(Malta)

Hi Emmanuel

Thank you for this very pleasant correction on Michael Cassar. I thought I remembered having recently read some implicit message that he had passed away, but great to know that he is still with us. During the eigthies I bought photos from him at a regular basis and he was even kind enough to print photos for me from his Marine News offerings that had already expired. Perhaps he will remember me, so give him my best wishes.
Thanks also for all your good wishes, which I of course would like to return to you in the same vein. (And I am 72 now, and not 73).   

Offline pieter melissen

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Re: posting historic photographs - policy question
« Reply #36 on: December 23, 2020, 07:57:16 AM »
May I propose that a paragraph based on this quote from Chas

"Could be part of site rules/agreement that copying for limited personal use is permitted."

in combination with this post from Kyle

"I believe that downloading of copyrighted photos is protected under various laws, depending on the country. In the British Commonwealth, "Fair Dealing" permits research and private study in a non-commercial capacity, which I believe would be the umbrella terms we are looking for. In the United States, "Fair Use" doctrine permits the same sort of use."

can be incorporated in Shipsspotting's Mission Statement, so that it becomes clear to everybody what it means when you post a photo here? It looks like a solution that I could live with, and probably many others too who just come here out of interest for ships. 

Offline ChasB46

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Re: posting historic photographs - policy question
« Reply #37 on: December 23, 2020, 02:25:56 PM »
Agreed, Shipspotters are a "family" that chat to and help each other in whatever country they meet. I'm so glad that so many took the trouble to learn English. My Latin mark was 3/100 and French was just a little better. I could read the words and translate in my head but as for speaking, zero.
I have no problem sharing my photos (most elsewhere /not on Shipspotting but that's another story) for personal saving/viewing. It's just the rogues that take advantage of our comradeship that need to be stopped.

Offline coasterwatcher

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Re: posting historic photographs - policy question
« Reply #38 on: December 23, 2020, 03:54:19 PM »
This is supposed to be a “friendly” site for enthusiasts but we do not want to be exploited by rogues or expose the site to litigation.
Keeping things simple .. on the first website page any pictures should be small and not of a quality for copying/ selling on. Max dimension 200pxl.?
Once you login via password etc  (how long does that take?) then you can see enlarged pictures but  still not necessarily have right to copy to personal/home folder. Could be part of site rules/agreement that copying for limited personal use is permitted.   Sign up (tick box etc to confirm read. Tick does not work unless you have at least scrolled through the wording if you want to “cheat”) to Member’s /site rules to cover legal bits, protect Shipspotting.com re copyright litigation.
OR alternative option ( see 1 to 3 below)  you can internal email request to other member ..”can I have a copy of photo X for personal  VIEWING on my computer?”   If member does not want to oblige at any request ever, then they do not permit showing of their email address.
If I was asked I would happily send requestor a better quality picture for their personal VIEWING use.  THEN If a member should be found to be flouting the rules / selling on photos etc. then a complaint to site gets them wiped from login ability/banned. No future  downloads. Online guests/ newbies can read site text (which is also copyright of sender) but no more until they join/abide by rules.

For a not so friendly site there are now ways to prevent photo copying from websites. Yes, I know the backroom staff are “volunteers”. Examples
1.   Add A DMCA Badge to the site .. The DMCA offers both free and paid protection for sites. Not sure how they charge eg companies, charities , non profit making sites but if persons are discovered using images without permission (all pics on site??) the person will get threatened legal action on sites behalf.  The process apparently is automatic and immediate. A DMCA badge added on the website to act as a frightener to image thieves.
2.   Do a  Reverse Image Search .. tools available ..use a search engine to find best. This shows an alternative image/ blank page on downloading.
3.   Disable right click etc. using plug-ins. Again search engines provide options to negate copy/pasting options.  OK, can be circumvented by determined but are they going to be?

I really must apologise but I do not understand this.

You seem to be suggesting that the copyright images on Shipspotting.com may have been stolen from other websites. This may be a problem - but I am much more aware of the problem that arises from publishing images taken from books, postcards, prints etc. Just as one example, I see lots of Charlie Hill's photographs that are not credited to him.

Again, I apologise if I have misunderstood you ChasB46.

Offline ChasB46

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Re: posting historic photographs - policy question
« Reply #39 on: December 23, 2020, 04:27:11 PM »
Hi coastwatcher, the opposite is true. If you go back several days the problem arises where a minority of persons exploit the site and "ripping" off members photos for gain/profit.  Technically any copying of a photo, even for your own viewing, is "illegal". All original work be it music, text, photos or even a scribble on a piece of paper is copyrighted immediately. No need for circled C etc. or to make that statement.  Its covered by international law/ prosecution automatically.  You can personally redact that copyright and make the subject "royalty free" or a "stock photo" but you have to make that statement on every article/photo.
So technically it is illegal for you/me to copy another persons photo without permission and by allowing such an act the site is seen to be complicit. The discussion was trying to find a way for site members to enjoy each others photos and "copy for personal use to computer for our enjoyment/viewing at home". Strictly speaking this is illegal. Its so easy on this site for felons to exploit our photos.
We are trying to find a way to stop those who are taking advantage of "our" photos for their money gain, claiming the photos are their own to sell without spoiling enjoyment of the site.

Offline Emmanuel.L

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Re: posting historic photographs - policy question
« Reply #40 on: December 23, 2020, 05:50:45 PM »
Sorry Pieter for having added a year to your age so it is 72, well you are not far from mine , I am 75 and 6 months, but these last months , I have been feeling more of my age as not having enough exercise having to stay mostly indoors, usually I am at the harbour photographing any thing that moves on the waters, but this cursed pandemic has curtailed ship movements ,so my visits to the harbour area are at a minimum ,and my usual friends are also old ,so we are all vulnerable, so mostly I find that am all alone.
As to Michael Cassar ,if you want to reconnect , I will gladly forward his email address.
keep safe my friend ,always hoping for better times.
Season Greetings.
best regards
Emmanuel.L.(Malta)

Offline coasterwatcher

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Re: posting historic photographs - policy question
« Reply #41 on: December 24, 2020, 12:07:20 PM »
Hi coastwatcher, the opposite is true. If you go back several days the problem arises where a minority of persons exploit the site and "ripping" off members photos for gain/profit.  Technically any copying of a photo, even for your own viewing, is "illegal". All original work be it music, text, photos or even a scribble on a piece of paper is copyrighted immediately. No need for circled C etc. or to make that statement.  Its covered by international law/ prosecution automatically.  You can personally redact that copyright and make the subject "royalty free" or a "stock photo" but you have to make that statement on every article/photo.
So technically it is illegal for you/me to copy another persons photo without permission and by allowing such an act the site is seen to be complicit. The discussion was trying to find a way for site members to enjoy each others photos and "copy for personal use to computer for our enjoyment/viewing at home". Strictly speaking this is illegal. Its so easy on this site for felons to exploit our photos.
We are trying to find a way to stop those who are taking advantage of "our" photos for their money gain, claiming the photos are their own to sell without spoiling enjoyment of the site.

Sorry ChasB46 - you have lost me completely. The opposite of what is true? I am well aware of the laws of copyright. You rightly say that posting copyright photos on this or any other site is illegal. There is a body of opinion that claims it is ok to post the images of others because it is only for the enjoyment. This is irrelevant. The felons, as you call them, are only part of the problem.

Offline ChasB46

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Re: posting historic photographs - policy question
« Reply #42 on: December 24, 2020, 01:15:34 PM »
Coasterwatcher, you have got the "wrong end of the stick". This is not about persons posting other people's photos on Shipspotting claiming them to be their own etc. That is a separate topic/ illegal and site could be liable and that's why they are removed.
However the copyright law works both ways. This discussion is about "members" at present copying any photos from this site to their own computers even if for just viewing at a later date.  Any photo posted on this site from me or anyone else is automatically copyrighted. If you or anyone else wants to download a photo you must ask not just "take" unless site photo/photos are designated public domain. The discussion was to find a "constitution"/ club rule wording that all members (requires login status)agree that copying other member's photos for ONLY personal viewing/saving for a later date is automatic. (However, if you should die and relatives find those photos believing them to be yours and display then they are acting illegally .. keep downloaded in separate named folder??)
Suggestion-If you do not want your photos copied at all you do not join the "club"/ become a member or upload your photos. At present the site could be deemed complicit in breaking international law as would any other person using the site and copying a photo.  Further it was suggested the photos on the opening page were degraded/ made smaller in size to be useless for copying. However by being a member and logging in a photo of copying standard would be available for members.( ie to be a member you agree to permit copying for personal use by other members.)
see reply 38 for other methods to stop "stealing" of our photos for use elsewhere.

Offline ChasB46

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Re: posting historic photographs - policy question
« Reply #43 on: December 24, 2020, 01:33:15 PM »
Coasterwatcher ..in simple terms ..wording to be placed within Shipspotting site rules that ONLY members( via login?) agree other members are permitted to copy any photos on the site BUT only for personal viewing.

Offline davidships

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Re: posting historic photographs - policy question
« Reply #44 on: December 24, 2020, 01:48:09 PM »
Dear members
This discussion has already been hijacked from that which was originally raised - just read it please and note the subject just above here.  If you want to talk about something different kindly start a new thread
Secondly there is no need to repeat yourselves nor to include copies of other members full messages in your replies (just a short extract if necessary).  It is the views of other members that is sought.