Author Topic: posting historic photographs - policy question  (Read 5504 times)

Offline pieter melissen

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Re: posting historic photographs - policy question
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2020, 07:33:22 PM »
Dirk, I rather listen to how the current webmaster interprets the rules, especially where he mentions (19/12) that the "photographer" is always the poster and that cannot be changed. The "photographer" can then indicate where the originates from. And copyright infringements in this day and age will probably only have serious consequences if people would try to upload Fotoflite images. 

Offline Kyle Stubbs

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Re: posting historic photographs - policy question
« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2020, 07:55:39 PM »
his name is entered as being the photographer, which he is/was not;

here as photographer should be entered "unknown."

Considering the the identity of photographer is a user name as opposed to any kind of verified identity, I don't think we should get too worked up over that qualification. If someone dubbed their account as "Donald Duck," I think we're all reasonable enough to assume that the photos posted by that account belong to the owner of the account, and not to the cartoon character.
"Action speaks louder than words but not nearly as often." -Mark Twain

Offline dirk septer

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Re: posting historic photographs - policy question
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2020, 02:59:54 AM »
Please refer to the topic: COLLECTIONS and UNKNOWN PHOTOGRAPHERS:

the current webmaster did agree with the statement of webmaster Ken Smith who noted there:

This question of uploading without any credit to the Author or Approval for use could have serious consequences for this website and I have a duty to protect the Website from any possible legal litigation, so with this in mind it has been decided that from today Tuesday Dec 10th 2013 all photographs uploaded to this website and not owned by the member will only be accepted if the Authors name and approval to use them is given with the photograph, "From My Collection" or "Unknown" will no longer be accepted and if uploaded as such they will be removed, I should also stress that if the details required are given and prove to be false then the member has to accept full responsibility, they have been accepted in good faith.

So to sum up, this Website was, and as far as I am concerned still is for uploading your Own photographs that are taken by you personally, obviously with its expansion it has rather drifted away a little from that principle but I would like to encourage a return to that idea for the future, we have plenty of homemade talent, let us make use of it.

Kind Regards
Ken Smith
Webmaster

Now, again refering to that 1939 photograph of liner-troopship_liner Tegelberg:

the member who posted this photo is NOT the photographer;
there is a big difference between "collection of" and "copyright."
there is no explanation about who took the photograph, nor whether the member
who posted the photo has the copyright.
was posted originally with the wrong IMO; and though this was pointed to poster,
who did acknowledge that comment, never even bothered fixing the mistake;
consequently, other photos of Tegelberg posted by other members also now show
the wrong IMO.

I understand the IT problem about the "photographer" but this can be improved in a
very simple manner by changing "Photographer:" to: "Photographer or poster:"
the poster will still have to explain the details re: copyright, etc.
"Collection of" does not mean anything.

And I totally agree with Ken Smith that the Shipspotting Website was, and as far as
he was concerned, still is for uploading member's own photographs that are taken by
them personally.

Maybe the time has come to return to our original roots and mission...
« Last Edit: December 22, 2020, 03:02:37 AM by dirk septer »

Offline pieter melissen

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Re: posting historic photographs - policy question
« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2020, 08:02:26 AM »
Dirk, today I turned 72. I have a large collection of own shot photographs. Both historical and modern stuff. Are you now suggesting that within say ten years time, my shots can no longer be published because I am dead, even if I give my children explicit permission to post?

Offline simonwp

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Re: posting historic photographs - policy question
« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2020, 09:28:22 AM »
Unfortunately Pieter, that is what the rules state, as written by Ken Smith in 2013. However things have moved on since then, and perhaps it is time to be a bit more flexible. As I said earlier, I have a collection on my Grandfathers photographs, which I've not posted, simply because they would be likely to provoke this sort of argument. I think the site will be poorer for not having that flexibility. I think "photographer unknown" is not acceptable, but "from my Grandfathers collection" or similar, should be.

Offline ChasB46

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Re: posting historic photographs - policy question
« Reply #20 on: December 22, 2020, 10:30:48 AM »
For a UK interpretation of copyright please see attached pdf. I would suggest that this wording is very much universal. Pieter re your photos see section Automatic Assignment .. (pass on in your will etc)

Offline ChasB46

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Re: posting historic photographs - policy question
« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2020, 10:32:25 AM »
And/or received from grandfather / father etc.

Offline simonwp

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Re: posting historic photographs - policy question
« Reply #22 on: December 22, 2020, 11:08:57 AM »
Thanks Chas, this really does clarify most points. It might be useful to have it pinned into the site rules so that it's easily visible. I'll start looking at my Grandfather's photographs with a view to posting the one's that meet site standards.

Offline pieter melissen

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Re: posting historic photographs - policy question
« Reply #23 on: December 22, 2020, 12:48:29 PM »
For a UK interpretation of copyright please see attached pdf. I would suggest that this wording is very much universal. Pieter re your photos see section Automatic Assignment .. (pass on in your will etc)

Thanks Chas, just glanced through, just wondering

1: whether it is allowed to download photos from Shipspotting in the first place, even for private use only....
2: It is allowed to sell photos on Ebay showing the photograph?

Just wondering how many shipspotters have actually made arrangements regarding copyright for after their death, and in how many cases heirs are actually aware of:
a: The existence and possible value of the collection.
b: The copyright rules involved.

If I remember correctly the WSS has asked several times to be included in peoples will with regards of the photo collections, but would that mean that in such cases the WSS gets the actual copyright?

Offline ChasB46

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Re: posting historic photographs - policy question
« Reply #24 on: December 22, 2020, 02:14:35 PM »
Pieter in reply to your questions
1. Downloading photos from anywhere on the web is breaching copyright unless specific permission is given by the copyright holder. That picture still cannot be re-published by that new holder as its still not their copyright, your permission is granted only for personal use. Even if you sell it to them its still your copyright. They cannot sell on otherwise commercial sites would be out of business. Some persons waive their copyright on websites but that has to be stated for each specific article.(Royalty Free). I have some old Esso tanker photographs sent to me in the 1960's (I begged a few) and they actually say I can reproduce but only for free and acknowledge their copyright. I have been asked via Shipspotting personal mail box if persons can download a copy of a photo of mine. I generally forward from my computer but its still my copyright which I retain. They can only save and view on their computer or use in printed format/publication. Cannot sell!. Still my copyright and they can't grant further copying without my permission.
2. Re Grandfather/father ..if not specifically designated in will  (could be left to an organization) they are still part of the estate and inherited by you/next of kin etc. (You do not detail every cup & saucer in a will do you?). So grandfather to father to you copyrights still applies so long as within specific country timeframe. After time limit = public domain.
3. Further to 1. and value. If you do not intend to sell they have no value on inheritance. Depending on each country's inheritance laws (eg UK you have to guesstimate value of every item in the estate for tax purposes /above £350,000 inheritance value at present time is taxable). Do not think a few photos would influence that.

In UK copyright lasts 70 years after death of original copyright holder (grandfather, not you). You would have to check on Netherland law. Elsewhere not usually less than 50 years (Geneva Convention etc.)

Hope this helps.

Also re the pdf in previous message .. for new Shipspotting viewers, you have to be logged in to access.

Offline pieter melissen

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Re: posting historic photographs - policy question
« Reply #25 on: December 22, 2020, 04:02:04 PM »
Thanks Chas,

So if I would download one of your shots and just store it on my laptop, it would be a breach op copyright. I have no intention to publish nor sell it on Ebay. The Ebay sellers I was thinking of are Woody Iow's of this world, that offer shots on Ebay, mostly watermarked and sell it as if they own the copyright. And yes I have been asked several times whether people could use one of my shots from here for a publication and with due credits, that is how it should be done.

Offline Bob Scott

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Re: posting historic photographs - policy question
« Reply #26 on: December 22, 2020, 06:09:35 PM »
Pieter: if you were to download one of my photos onto your computer for your own personal appreciation  and admiration, I would be quite "chuffed" that you liked it so much. It would NOT be seen as a breach of copyright any more than if - in the days before the internet - you had cut a picture out of a magazine or brochure and stuck it in a scrapbook.
However, if you then posted my photo on another site without my permission - particularly if you also did not give me credit for it - I would be down on you like a tonne of bricks (in your case, in a relatively friendly sort of way LOL). And if you SOLD one of my photos, I'd be down on you like 10 tonnes of bricks (possibly with a copyright lawyer in tow).
In the meantime, best wishes for Christmas and New Year from the Tier 4 county of Kent (now twinned with Wuhan, China) and STAY SAFE

Offline pieter melissen

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Re: posting historic photographs - policy question
« Reply #27 on: December 22, 2020, 06:50:13 PM »
Bob, just copying (is that allowed??) from ChasB attachment I can only conclude that the downloading act in itself is already restricted. I doubt if they would apply that rule to your work, but all other "work" would come under this restriction.

"Under UK law, the restricted acts are:
• copying the work;
• issuing copies of the work to the public;
• renting or lending the work to the public;
• performing, showing or playing the work in public;
• communicating the work to the public; and
• making an adaptation of the work."

And all the best wishes to you too, from a single tier non-advice obeying country.

Offline teachers

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Re: posting historic photographs - policy question
« Reply #28 on: December 22, 2020, 08:25:33 PM »
Does anyone know if there has ever been a successful prosecution of a photo thief?

I think a number of mine have been stolen over the years and sold on by thieves using anonymous names.

If i was ever given a name i would prosecute.

I know we are told if you dont want your photos stolen, dont post them on the internet, if we all did that there would be no site.

Offline ChasB46

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Re: posting historic photographs - policy question
« Reply #29 on: December 22, 2020, 08:36:35 PM »
Pieter another long answer.
Pieter , no one has the right to  download any photo from a website even for their sole use. Out of kindness I could give you a copy of my photo but that still does not infer on you any rights at all. Selling that picture as your own is an international criminal offence. (At minimal contravenes Geneva Convention)   Dutch Copyright Law (called Auteurswet) is as far as I can tell exactly same as UK. Possibly whole of Europe States are the same and you could be prosecuted under European (not Netherland/Dutch law)
Once upon a time you had to put an encircled C or a statement claiming copyright. This is no longer the case. A person’s original work ( whether text, music or picture or even a doodle on a napkin) is protected by law automatically. That’s why you can’t copy/download text, photos or music etc. without originators permission. You have to purchase a CD, Amazon Music etc. or the Beatles would be penniless by now. Recent case of musician selling their FULL music/copyright for $m’s to recording company.
My photos or inherited  ones are my copyright. They cannot be viewed, copied without my permission. The fact I upload to Shipspotting.com gives my permission to view and nothing more. Shipspotting.com to stay within international law should state in its contract between itself and its members that any photos published on the website are for viewing only. Other persons viewing the site are as “guests” only. Copying of any picture is illegal without  copyright owner’s (not Shipspotting.com) permission. Allowing copying Shipspotting.com is complicit?
Its relatively ease to “mark” your photos to protect copyright/prove they are yours without defacing /unnoticed by the observer but with characteristics that a “thief” would not notice or take too long to manipulate out.  I used to do it on my first 800 uploaded to “Shipspotting”, no one noticed but I could prove my copyright quite easily. All removed now, but that’s another story.
Confession, I upload to Fleetmon and I have to tick a box every time I upload a photo to say its for public viewing. (That means viewing ONLY). My contract with them states I / they have to get permission from the originator to copy anything from their site. (That incidentally includes their website text)  An example recently .. a Southampton shipping company wanted to use one of my photos in a publication. Fleetmon emailed me to even permit my email address be known to the requestor. I then had to negotiate directly re use/payment etc.  Fleetmon have no rights or negotiations to my photos, they are only there  because I gave them permission to show, nothing more. Even though the shipping company came to an agreement with me re £ price they could only use the photo in the one permitted circumstance and they still had no right to any part of the copyright. (I could have sold them the copyright but why would I and then lose all control?). (We actually agreed on a donation to Southampton Special Care Baby Unit, my late wife being a midwife there). As an extra, as a gift, without their knowledge at the time I also included a photo of every ship I had taken re the company. Again they had permission to allow their staff to VIEW but not download/copy any of them.
Hope this helps.

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