Author Topic: posting historic photographs - policy question  (Read 5504 times)

Offline dirk septer

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posting historic photographs - policy question
« on: December 18, 2020, 03:42:20 PM »
What is the policy on posting historic photographs?

If the vessel is not actually spotted/photographed by a certain member,
should this still qualify to be posted on a site by the name shipspotting?

If historic photos taken by others can be posted, is it kosher that
the member posts these under his own name?

Offline Kyle Stubbs

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Re: posting historic photographs - policy question
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2020, 04:45:18 PM »
"Action speaks louder than words but not nearly as often." -Mark Twain

Offline teachers

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Re: posting historic photographs - policy question
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2020, 08:26:07 PM »
Hello Dirk,

I think i know where you are coming from.

One suggestion i would have to simplify things is when you look at a photo and firstly you see photographer, then date captured, if IT could type posted by, between the two, then if the poster is not the photographer then you could insert unknown or name of photographer if known or the late with the name inserted.

I would not expect IT to do this for all photos currently on site, but consider it for a new beginning for the new year.

Offline dirk septer

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Re: posting historic photographs - policy question
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2020, 10:10:09 PM »
Personally I don't think members should not even post/be allowed to post photos that are not their own. After all, this site is called SHIPSPOTTERS..... Other people's photos have nothing to do with shipspotting.

To post historic photos not taken by themselves could be posted under a separate category "historic photographs," with the name of the photographer, or when this is not known just a simple "unknown."

Offline Brent

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Re: posting historic photographs - policy question
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2020, 05:57:35 AM »
Hi
I think Dirk is way off reservation, yes the site is shipspotting (not shipspotters), but over the years these arguments have overwhelmingly resolved that we should see all photoes. The site only opened two decades ago, but should not exclude old stuff which has massive interest and even though the photographer is dead, they traded their rights to the poster by allowing the image to be passed on. 

How many times have we seen this debate ...
...

Offline Tony des Landes

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Re: posting historic photographs - policy question
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2020, 06:21:27 AM »
As Brent has said, this has been raised before and there are also other views that have been aired in the past.

Even though a poster may not be the original photographer, the ships involved have still been "spotted", but in that period, there was no opportunity to share photos this way.

Some believe (including myself), that it would be a great loss to have historic photos left in a draw or up in the attic, only to be thrown out when the original photographer passes away.

It would be safe to say most posters are hobbyists, and are not wanting to profit from their postings.

I set myself the task some years back to get a photo of every ship to visit the Port of Napier, and that would not have been possible if I wasn't able to access sites where historic photos were available.
...

Offline Bob Scott

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Re: posting historic photographs - policy question
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2020, 11:12:42 AM »
The site rules on this subject are quite clear and, until or unless these are changed (I hope not), they should be adhered to by members and rigorously enforced by admins.

Offline davidships

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Re: posting historic photographs - policy question
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2020, 02:12:08 PM »
Thank you for your various contributions.  They well illustrate the variety of views on this subject amongst members.  Copyright is one aspect and Kyle has usefully linked below to the current site policy, usefully formulated by Ken. It has two purposes:
  • to set the requirements for attribution
  • to protect the site from legal claims for breach of copyright

Where commercial rights are believed to be breached, images are removed and can only be reinstated where specific permission can be shown.

Where a specific non-commercial copyright claim is made by another member or from elsewhere the image is categorised "Copyright Questionable" and a prompt check made before deletion (false claims are rare, but not unknown).

Other "non-member" photos are accepted at face value - they should either indicate the original photographer or, for those where that is not possible, explain the provenance.  Some of these are investigated either specifically or on a random basis, and action is taken as appropriate.

In all cases, uploads to the site are the responsibility of the member.  That is why it is fundamental that the uploading member's name appears below the image.  There is no possibility of changing that, and it remains the case that no Admin can alter that.  Just to clarify, "Admin" here means the small team of volunteers that moderate the site content, applying site standards and other rules etc; "IT" is the professional team employed by the site-owner to maintain the software and functionality - they have no role in moderating content.

This is not intended to close off discussion, but I thought it useful to give an indication of how I approach some of these issues.

Offline Bob Scott

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Re: posting historic photographs - policy question
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2020, 05:32:32 PM »
So, David, is it or is it not permissible to post photos by "unknown" photographers or from other people's "collections" where the original photographer's identity is uncertain or not given? As I read the site rules as they stand, they are not.
  
« Last Edit: December 19, 2020, 05:36:30 PM by Bob Scott »

Offline simonwp

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Re: posting historic photographs - policy question
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2020, 05:43:46 PM »
I think the big grey area is that of photographs that have been inherited from family members. I have a significant quantity I have inherited from my Grandfather. Quite a few are good enough to meet site standards. I don't specifically have his permission to post them, he died long before the internet was thought of. I don't have any way of proving their provenance, they were not in his will, my Grandmother just gave them to me. I've not posted any up to now, as clearly they are not my own, many were taken before I was born. I could post them and say taken by my Grandfather....would that be OK????? Lockdown has given me the time to sort and scan the best, but I've been reluctant to post, in case other members objected.

Quite a few are of vessel with no other photograph on this site. I do sometimes think the site ought try and find a way to host historic photographs. I'm not sure seeing yet another photograph of Emma Maersk or whatever is all that interesting, however good the photograph. Many members also like to see something a bit different, or out of the ordinary, and historic photographs can fulfill that need.

Offline Bob Scott

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Re: posting historic photographs - policy question
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2020, 06:04:52 PM »
Simonwp: posting your grandfather's photographs that he took himself is no problem as long as you give him the credit for them. The copyright problem comes if you post one from his collection not taken by himself and where the photographer is unknown. Copyright remains with the original photographer until 70 years after his or her death.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2020, 06:12:58 PM by Bob Scott »

Offline pieter melissen

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Re: posting historic photographs - policy question
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2020, 08:54:53 PM »
During the first half of the eighties I bought pictures from the WSS collection and directly from: Keith Byass, Michael Cassar and Peter Foxley (Airfoto Malacca). I traded negatives with Alex Duncan in exchange for photos. As far as I know all mentioned persons are no longer alive. Yet I think copyright laws are still in place for all of them, so I will not post anything coming from them, until I am told that some of those pictures might no longer come under copyright laws. For the upcoming years I still have enough left in my own stuff to remain a prolific poster. (in waves)

Offline dirk septer

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Re: posting historic photographs - policy question
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2020, 03:41:45 PM »


Where commercial rights are believed to be breached, images are removed and can only be reinstated where specific permission can be shown.

Where a specific non-commercial copyright claim is made by another member or from elsewhere the image is categorised "Copyright Questionable" and a prompt check made before deletion (false claims are rare, but not unknown).

Other "non-member" photos are accepted at face value - they should either indicate the original photographer or, for those where that is not possible, explain the provenance.  Some of these are investigated either specifically or on a random basis, and action is taken as appropriate.

http://www.shipspotting.com/gallery/photo.php?lid=1653526

Now, taking this interesting historic photograph of liner-troopship-liner Tegelberg taken in 1939;
(even claimed as his own by member who posted it!), should be deleted according to rules quoted above.
BTW: This Tegelberg photo and all others of same vessel show the wrong IMO as well (5354391 >> 5535439).

There are many more that should be deleted according to the rules. This would be a real loss.

So, instead of deleting them, why not just leaving them and quoting these as "photographer: unknown"

Offline pieter melissen

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Re: posting historic photographs - policy question
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2020, 04:05:31 PM »


http://www.shipspotting.com/gallery/photo.php?lid=1653526

Now, taking this interesting historic photograph of liner-troopship-liner Tegelberg taken in 1939;
(even claimed as his own by member who posted it!), should be deleted according to rules quoted above.


The member in question did not say that, he mentioned it to be from his collection. I have photos in my collection which I did not take. 

Offline dirk septer

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Re: posting historic photographs - policy question
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2020, 06:30:19 PM »
his name is entered as being the photographer, which he is/was not;

here as photographer should be entered "unknown."

This is what webmaster Ken Smith wrote on December 20, 2013: (especially note his last paragraph):

There has been a recent increase in the number of photographs of older ships uploaded to the website under the heading of "From My Collection" also seen is "Photographer Unknown" or quite often nothing to indicate the author of the original but from the photograph it is obvious it was not taken by the member who uploaded it and that it has been acquired or purchased even maybe copied from another source.

If a photograph is uploaded as such then it can be considered as Copyright Infringement and this Website has very clear rules on this and they are laid out in "Uploading Photos Guidance" Rule 7 clearly states "When uploading Members must comply with the Copyright Law". the rules also state that if you are uploading photographs not taken by you then you must give the Authors name and that you have approval to use them, this information must be given with an uploaded photograph, sadly this is not always the case and no credit is given.

We do have members uploading to the Website photographs that they do not own, I will not name them but you will know who I am referring to, I can assure you and they can confirm that they have been thoroughly checked for authenticity of the information they give, I have insisted that they do this for the credibility of this website so they are not affected by this decision, the details they provide with their uploads have been approved.

This question of uploading without any credit to the Author or Approval for use could have serious consequences for this website and I have a duty to protect the Website from any possible legal litigation, so with this in mind it has been decided that from today Tuesday Dec 10th 2013 all photographs uploaded to this website and not owned by the member will only be accepted if the Authors name and approval to use them is given with the photograph, "From My Collection" or "Unknown" will no longer be accepted and if uploaded as such they will be removed, I should also stress that if the details required are given and prove to be false then the member has to accept full responsibility, they have been accepted in good faith.

So to sum up, this Website was, and as far as I am concerned still is for uploading your Own photographs that are taken by you personally, obviously with its expansion it has rather drifted away a little from that principle but I would like to encourage a return to that idea for the future, we have plenty of homemade talent, let us make use of it.

Kind Regards
Ken Smith
Webmaster

« Last Edit: December 21, 2020, 06:35:38 PM by dirk septer »