London Gateway vs Felixstowe

[chrisg46]

I was just reading that the new port of London Gateway reckons it will only be an additional 2 hours sailing time for large vessels than Felixstowe, which will have to enter via Black Deep and the Sunk Pilot station, rather then the much more direct Princes Channel, which is shallower.

Felixstowe claims that the additional sailing time will be more like 6 hours each way, and this sounds about right to me. Any views or facts, please?

[davidships]

Well, Chris, I was a bit surprised with a little not-very-scientific survey from AIS tracks.  Taking deep-sea containerships arriving via the Sunk, and taking timings from slower-speed turn (assumed to be the pilot pick-up).  Ships seem to take longer to reach Felixstowe than I imagined. In recent days:

SOFIE MAERSK: 1600-1830 = 2

[adams]

Port of Felixstowe sees London Gateway as a major threat (in the long run) and management is using every possible argument to convince shipping lines that it is not worth to go to LG.
Like Davis has said in the post above, time difference in sailing is not so great, but saving in inland haulage for receivers is huge, as LG is much closer to London and will have own distribution centre right next to port.
In the end major receivers (not shipping lines) decide where they want  to receive their cargo, therefore above mentioned argument sounds bit silly.

[chrisg46]

Thanks for these viewpoints! I too spend a happy hour (or two) working on AIS, and made this video. I'd be glad if you'd comment on if you think (a) I've got it right, and (b) if its clear enough!

http://youtu.be/zMZOe_Sf-qo

[adams]

so in reality vessels will reach GPPL in just over 4-4,5 hrs (going full speed, not 12kts as the vessel going to Thames port did). This is only 2 hrs more each way, not 6 as bosses of Felixstowe port claims. In my view it was a little bit unprofessional and surely shipping lines don

[chrisg46]

There's now a second video online about the competitive aspects between the Port of Felixstowe and London Gateway:

http://youtu.be/FM-4Pb8XdwA

[davidships]

Interesting Chris, though I wouldn't describe Thamesport's access to the M25 as anything like comparable to London Gateway.  I would guess that it would take at least twice as long to reach the M25 and, for traffic going anywhere except London or the West, they have more M25, the bridge/tunnel and toll to take into account.

On the other hand, Felixstowe traffic for Midlands and beyond doesn't have to touch the congested M25.  Also worth noting that all ports trying to maximise rail-delivered boxes.

[Riverman2903]

Good point David, much money is being spent on upgrades to ensure rail traffic from Felixstowe does not run via London unless that is where it is heading. Traffic for Midlands and North will travel cross country, freeing up the Great Eastern Main line, North London Line and West Coast Main Line for passenger traffic. In an ideal world, boxes for Midlands and North would arrive in Felixstowe and London/South at Gateway, ports are however competing against each other so the factor to decide which port a shipping line will use will depend on how quickly they can get the box to the customer, be that by road or rail and in that context Felixstowe has the better links.

Perhaps the port to be worrying most should be Tilbury, why are shippers going to extend journeys to a port with poor transport links compared to Gateway and Felixstowe? If I was Tilbury management then I would be very concerned about Gateway. We shall have to wait and see. 

[/quote]On the other hand, Felixstowe traffic for Midlands and beyond doesn't have to touch the congested M25.  Also worth noting that all ports trying to maximise rail-delivered boxes.

[chrisg46]

Yes, thinking about it, I have to admit I was a bit unsure about the competitive aspects of Thamesport . . . but I needed to see what was happening there, too. If Thamesport's road links were better, it could be more of a contender.

The other question that interests me a lot is - are we looking at increased regionalisation of container traffic? Bristol and Liverpool both have planning permission for 2-berth deepwater terminals, Bristol's with 18m depth, and Liverpool's with a 16.5m pocket. Looks like both will be able to handle Maersk Tiple-Es (18,000 TEU due 2013) and MSC's 16,000 TEU vessels.

[Alan Green]

An interesting item appeared on BBC Look East (Wednesday 20.02.13) re: London Gateway vs Felixstowe.
A representative of London Gateway was interviewed on the new quayside (standing in front of approx. 3 China Shipping containers) and, quite rightly, was very upbeat about the development and the approx. 12,000 jobs that will be created on the quay and logistics park.
Felixstowe Port declined to take part but the item included comments from Felixstowe Port Users Association. Felixstowes defence still seems to centre around the longer steaming times from the Sunk (I think a figure of 8 hours was mentioned in the programme) and the increased pilotage dues.

[chrisg46]

Just managed to watch it before it ran out on Iplayer, Alan.

I think we mustn't forget that the driver for all of this will be where the cargo owners want their boxes to go. Ultimately, they tell the ocean carriers which port they want the boxes collected from and landed at, and the carriers ultimately refuse at their peril, in the end. Both Felixstowe and Gateway ran major campaigns in China last autumn, selling their ports to Chinese cargo owners. Per box ocean carriage costs are more or less the same for any northern European port - Felixstowe, Gateway, Rotterdam, Bremerhaven - there isn't much difference.

An extra 4 or 6 hours steaming time, on a 40+ day rotation to the Far East, is also pretty immaterial for the lines - 19 knot or whatever speed slow steaming is nominal anyway, because ships have to vary their speed to meet their slots. The maybe extra 20 or 30 tons of fuel is neither here nor there - and if Gateway performs on its key promises of faster turnaround with less delays, the cost of additional steaming will be offset by being able to steam the next leg on the voyage slower.

[Alan Green]

Chris, I agree.  Being involved in Logistics I have watched the success of Teesport in attracting the likes of Tesco and ASDA to their " Portcentric " operations. 
Without a doubt, this is where London Gateway will score over Felixstowe by developing the  massive Logistics Park. I doubt if Felixstowe have an answer due to land constraints.
Even Tilbury is out of the starting blocks with the commencement of construction of their Logistics Park in 2013. 

[davidships]

I doubt if Felixstowe have an answer due to land constraints.

Don't forget that Felixstowe is sitting on planning consents (there were conditions IRC - probably to do with road links) on Bathside Bay over the water at Harwich.  Not a short-term solution, but for later perhaps.

[chrisg46]

Felixstowe does have access to a potential back-lot industrial site, already fully owned by Trinity College, who'd love to develop it as a warehouse/distribution centre. They own huge areas of land in the locality, including a good deal of the Felixstowe port estate. The site is about a mile or so away from the nearest part of the port, so it could work - but there's a good deal of resident resentment against further development. Personally, I think they're cutting off their noses, etc . .  Trinity could quite easily get construction started in 2013, if they could get planning consent.

I don't think that there is any possibility of Bathside starting construction in the near or medium future; like Gateway, and like Liverpool and Bristol's 2-berth mainline terminals, Bathside first arose before the recession, when traffic looked like expanding for ever. Now, with trade growth non-existent, DP World's Southampton and Gateway will be fighting for existing traffic against HPUK's Thamesport and Felixstowe, and there'll eventually be 6 new berths at Gateway, and another at Southampton, to fill before future growth becomes an issue.

Incidentally, there's now a new video from Shipping TV dealing with the latest from London Gateway:

http://youtu.be/JSYl-63idUo