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Messages - Jeroen v.d. Kaaden

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@ kevin,

That's correct.. one of the so much dubious points.
Covering the M/V Estonia with concrete. The Swedish government told as reason 'to protect the vessel of robbing'. Yeh, sure. Robbing what, criminals did already robbed passangers who reached the otherdecks that night!!, but o.k. beside of that.. Most divers are sports divers then, wreckdiving, but wreckdiving to Estonia shouldn't be a pleasant at all, only the thought that more then 800 body's still in, and when it's a "bad-diver", risk his life to go in the vessel at 80 meters depht for robbing some money left in the gamming-machines or counter of the shop/restaurant, or something else, well I don't believe.

Probably some more interesting; 200 ton of un-identified cargo/loading (or it was water, a un-pumpalble compartment already full of water, maybe the later mounted stabilizers, who are in a not-accesable void..)

2
Your welcome!

Yes the Estonia capsized just like the Herald of Free Enterprise, due the free surface-effect, of water on the cardeck. Only I have some doubt were the water started comming in to Estonia, read a lot about it, see pictures, and all the reports there are at this moment on internet.  But the fact that there were problems with bow visor I agree, no doubt about. Vessel had ice-damaging before on bowdoors, hinges en closing-device.

3
for people who're interested in the report of the 'German Groups of experts'; (contra-expertise)

Interesting report, and I recommend to everybody who's interested in it. The best is to also notice the finalreport of JAIC.

http://www.estonia.exprimo.net/estonia/index.html

this report shines a light from the othersite on the disaster..

Also a good site and report + facts about Estonia:
http://www.factgroup.nu/

4
O.K. O.K. trough the water she sanked. agree.
But survived passangers reported water icome from deck 0 and 1 (below waterline). So probably water income was lower then bow-opening. Why she sanked so fast. When the shipped had to be sanked as told by the final report of the 3 goverments and JAIC (flooding cardeck only) there should be enough air in the double hull to let her floot for at least more then a day up side down, but due the weight there already was in the with water filled lower area of the vessel she sanked in 45 mintus.. what about the 13 missing crew memebers.. It was btw well-known that there was a lot of smuggling on that particular route from Estonia to Sweden..

After disaster it is also a fact, that the ship was 100t. heavier then in the loading-manifest was.. there were more trucks onboard then on the papers..

I mean, it's so easy to point in a direction of the probably reason she sank, because we had Herald of Free enterprise first, so probably not enough lessons learned bla bla bla... but the most real proof, and the best proof is still under water, and goverments do there best to avoid some can get it.. manipulating, etc..

But i think this is a point people will have different thoughts about. no problem. I realy hope some day there will be new evidence, new facts.. real proofable facts, but i think we can wait very very very long on that day.

Regards.

5
Thnx JMS.
Ik know this report.

But still then.. so much contradictions more.
personaly I can't believe the vessel sinked 100% due the bowvisor design and locking-device.

6
Yesterday (Wednesday 26 oktober) here in the Netherlands at Discovery Channel was in the program 'Zero Hour' the disaster of the M/V Estonia.

I'm very interested in the vessel and al the developments in the investigation to the sinking of M/V Estonia an al the facts around for many years.

Discovery announced their programm, as divulging, with new facts, etc.. But for me that was a kind of disappointment, maybe 2 other/new facts in compare to earlier television programs over the Estonia and the sinking of it.

I read and discovered a lot about the horrible sinking of this vessel on internet, read the book from Juta Rabe, (only didn't see the movie "Baltic Storm" but I hope to do that soon), and noticed that the story is not the way as the media is showing to the outher-world, to us..

For example; it's proven that on some important areas of the bow-visor are marks from detonation. The shape of the steel, and force which bend it, can only done by explosion-power. Especialy the shape, outward bended, like a flower..
But this is just one of the many facts there are, who contradict to the theorie, and the story we know, heavy weather, to high speed, bad bowdoor closingdevise, poor maintenance, badly an to weak constructed by shipyard, etc... etc...

I was just wondering if anybodyelse also see this documentairy at Discovery.
I realy hope that some day the real story come above.
Sometimes it seems to be forget, 852 people died.
Many times on television you see of aircrashes flashbacks, in-memories, etc. for example of Pan-am, and other terrible plane-crashes,  but Estonia never.. Strange.

Regards from Rotterdam, The Netherlands.

7
Shipping News and information / Re: Maersk Dunkerque
« on: October 26, 2005, 06:03:53 PM »
@Norfolklin;
Well, I never said there is a problem.. For me no problem that this vessel has this extending in front of the bow. Ofcourse I understand that it's overthere for a particalur purpose. Be glad that I say honest that I don't like that 'table' in front, that's my opinion, I think better then saying "Oh yes, beuatifull" because the rest is saying that also.. I like to say my opinion, and I hope that everyone is doing that overhere. And again (pls. read carefully my last post) generaly I like the vessel, design, colours etc.. looks nice. But for me, I like clean, and "traditional" shaped bows..  :-)

Regards,
Jeroen, Rotterdam, The Netherlands.

8
Shipping News and information / Re: Maersk Dunkerque - Link to pictures
« on: October 25, 2005, 06:38:09 PM »
Well, to be honest, don't like the kind of "table" or extending in front of the bow, ugly. for the rest looks nice..

9
Scale Models / Re: have someone vlcc at dock pictures??
« on: October 19, 2005, 07:50:48 PM »
Well toni, I've got a book, called "Giganten der Weltmeere". German book. In that book are some pict's of docked supertankers. Mostly tankers from before 1985, but that was also the time that the biggest tankers ever wer build. I can scan some picts. for you, but still than I don't know if it are the right ones, and that particular you search for..  

Regards,
Jeroen,
Rotterdam, The Netherlands.

10
Trip reports / Re: Scandinavia / Polferries
« on: October 16, 2005, 04:32:26 PM »
Polsteam,

I noticed the last 3 years the same points as you discripped. I travel generaly between germany-sweden/norway, and between denmark norway, with mostly Stena Line and Color Line (last time Fjord Line).

For 8 years ago it was possible to walk over the entire deck of ships, (Stena Scandinavia/Germanica for example) now these days it's not possible anymore to go straight behind the bridgewings, it's "strictly forbidden" to go that stair up to that deck level. (blocked with chain/cable).  The same for Color line, last time I sailed with the 'M/V Color Fantasy' i noticed a lot of out-board camera's, for watching the deck (some years before there were no camera's) and whole area's were not accesable, so that a lot of passangers had to stand all-togehter on a small piece of deckarea, I couldn't even standing to the railing to take some nice pict's of the sailing out of the port!!  

But it can be have several reasons for blocking area's, I noticed it also that it's sometimes temporary (maybe because of hightimes in some seasons) or by repairworks/alternatingworks of, stairs/handrail, davits, lifeboats, paintworks, etc..  But the main reason is i think realy safety, the threat terroristic-attacks now these days after 9-11, in that case it's a good thing, that's my oppinion, ships are getting larger, lots of people in some seasons so it's a serious target.

But ofcourse i understand your frustration, but sometimes, when it's quit on the outside decks (later in the evening) I go out again with my camera, and look over my shoulder for 2, 3 times, and just crossing the chain or cable, watch out for deckcamera's, take my picts, enjoy the view and go back, and (hopefully) know-one see's :-D  

Regards,
Jeroen.

11
Shipping News and information / Re: Brittany Ferries Orders New Ship
« on: August 03, 2005, 11:47:31 PM »
Aker is doing well.. Good shipyard, good reputation, building nice ships.
Probably they win it agains Meyer. Last Brittany was J.L. Meyer build, beautifull vessel also.

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