ShipSpotting.com Forum
Shipspotters all over the world => Help and Advice => Topic started by: Cornelia Klier on January 13, 2010, 08:44:07 PM
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Hello all,
today I came across one of my photos of CMA CGM Norma
http://www.shipspotting.com/modules/myalbum/photo.php?lid=702343
at this report
http://www.bluepulz.com/?Id=2452
within the http://www.bluepulz.com/ news agency.
I was never asked for permission !
It seems it's a pretty new agency and I'd say, folks watch out for your photos and check whether they have nicked other people's photos as well.
PLEASE look also the other articles and photos, some photos do look very familiar to ones I have seen here
Greetings,
Cornelia
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Regrettably, this commonplace and is one of the downsides to having photos posted on line. Some databases (airliners.net) for example offer watermarking for approved work, others, like stock libraries (agencies) limit access to thumbnails and only allowing paying clients and or members to full size copies.
Bottom line, there is almost no sure fire way to prevent from having you photos stolen. It all depends how determined the thief is to have that photo. Depending upon where you live, you do have legal recourse, but you have to weigh the costs involved in taking it through your civil courts.
Thomas
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Photo of the Berge Stahl I think is from Max Mueller. http://www.shipspotting.com/modules/myalbum/photo.php?lid=781372
We know the risks of having our photos on this site without restrictions.
nevertheless we keep an open eye and warn each other and mail to the perpetrators.
And if you like, the admins can write to them on behalf of the owners of the site. When we all report these people with their full names here and in other fora, they can be found by Google as perpetrators. Most people don't want that
Cheers Fred
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fredvloo wrote:
And if you like, the admins can write to them on behalf of the owners of the site. Cheers Fred
Hi Fred
That used to the agreement under the previous site ownership, Kenth did post a message back in the day saying that he would write to anyone seen to be using photographs from the site commercially. Not sure that the same applies under the current ownership - probably better just to pursue any infringement ourselves as that will carry just as much weight.
Regards
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Thanks for info.
This publication (Internet news portal) does not seem decent. Decent company would not hide real (at least mailing - snail mail) address.
The only way of contacting them is by e-mail.
And they encourage contributors of text and photos (they invite journalists and photographers to co-operate). What guarantee I have I will be paid publication fees, when the Website does not even reveal the real address of the company (publisher) that is running it.
I cannot figure out even the country where this Website is "produced" / published. Traces I found are Germany, Denmark and USA...
After your complaint - have they removed your photo?...
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Copyright breaching is an "every day problem" these days. Also on the forum of shipspotting.com.
It has been discussed here dozens of times in dozens of forum threads.
I do not want to offend anyone. Please (anyone), do not take it personally, but I am little bit fed up with "golden advices" in the style of "you have to get used to it", "the best way to avoid theft of your photos is not to display them on public websites".
It is pretty obvious for any average clever person that if I display a photo in public it (technically) MAY be taken by anyone and used without my permission or even knowledge. But this 1) is obvious and 2) this is not the point.
When someone posts a message on the forum with information about just discovered another case of Copyright breach (like Cornelia did or as I sometimes do or several other users do) - this post does not ask for a reply (seen for the hundredth time on this forum) like "don't display pictures to avoid them being stolen".
Posts with information on another case of Copyright breach have the following purposes:
- to let fellow shiplovers and shipspotters know about the breacher to enable them to take action if their pictures are also stolen (if they discover this after checking the site, where the case of Copyright breach was detected and announced on the forum)
- to enable people who already have the experience with particular Copyright breacher to share their experiences (for example whether complaint was effective, what to do in this particular case, etc., etc.).
It is pointless to provide such useless "advices" as "don't post pictures on-line to avoid your Copyright breached" for the hundredth time on this forum in reply to every new post with information on new case of Copyright breach.
I understand that some persons may be NEW to this problem, to such threads on this forum or they may be newly registered on this community...
But probably "netiquette" desires / stipulates that - before entering the discussion - someone should review the threads so far to avoid repeating same "golden advices" for the hundredth time.
Posting information on new cases of Copyright breach (and forum thread devoted to this) is a sign of solidarity with other shipspotting.com users (whose rights might potentially be breached on the same website reported) and a kind of mutual help. Therefore real help and advices of EFFECTIVE dealing with Copyright breach (in general or in particular case described in new thread) should be posted and not useless remarks (repeated on the forum for the 100th time) like "if you don't display pictures they will not be stolen for sure"...
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COOLWHOIS shows for bluepulz.com: (Faroe Island)
http://www.coolwhois.com/d/bluepulz.com
Bluepulz remembers me in WAREZ, SERIALZ, GAMEZ (illegal Hacker sites)
Rgds.
Juergen
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I agree that this does get repeated over and over.
One suggestion might be to have a sticky forum "Sites of Shame" where members can add those sites that have used photographs illegally.
Hopefully this will avoid creations of new forums each time a breach is discovered where the same discussion about watermarks, forced logins etc starts again.
Tony
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Hello Ken,
why can't we have this topic on the forum on a regular basis ??
Please, specify why, I'd like to know which are your arguements.
I think, we SHOULD have this topic on the forum as often as copyright infringements do happen !!
We need to happen these topics on the forum, not to get caught in the neverending story about watermarks etc. and so on, but we need to have them there, to alert other members of possibly copyright infringements on their photos too !
I'd say, these topics are a kind of neighbourhood-watch, we can help eachothers this way and it makes the community stronger if we are keeping an eye on eachother.
Such topics do not have to be discussed, but are just to understood as a warning to everyone, to check these agencies etc. for their own photos. These topics I think, could be made sticky (but impossible to answer on!) by administrators, IF that is a possible.
Such messages may even be removed after a period of 4 weeks (or such).
Greetings,
Cornelia
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I agree with Cornelia.
It is up to us to make these discussions more mature.
And as always, you don't have to follow these topics.
Without these discussions this forum is sooo boring ;-)
Have fun Fred
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The point of making it "sticky" was that it would always be at the top and allow members to add links to offending sites as soon as they come across any.
It would also mean that all the offenders were recorded under one forum and make it easier to see those sites.
Tony
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Hello Ken,
I think this is a good decision !!! A special forum called "Copyright Issues" or something like that, where things like that be put, to alert following members.
It would as well be away from the other folks then, who do not care much of this.
However, I think the attitude "if you don't like your photos stolen don't put any online" will never be valid.
Or how would you think about "if you don't want to be robbed, don't leave your house" or something like that ? Well not THAT drastic but I think you get what I mean ;-)
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Some days ago I was informed by a shipspotting member that the company
http://www.crystal.fi/
http://www.euroceanica.com/
have stolen 4 of my fotos and have even removed my watermark.
They also took fotos from other shipspotting member, as
http://www.shipspotting.com/modules/myalbum/photo.php?lid=1042298
http://www.shipspotting.com/modules/myalbum/photo.php?lid=85246
I send them several Mails to London and Helsinki, without any reply.
So I took little action, removed the original fotos from my website and replaced them by other fotos.
http://www.sh-touri.de/fotos/crystal_pearl_scan.jpg
http://www.sh-touri.de/fotos/crystal_amethyst_scan.jpg
http://www.sh-touri.de/fotos/crystal_skye_scan.jpg
http://www.sh-touri.de/fotos/euro_atlantica_scan.jpg
The texture shown on the fotos I also placed into the source text of my homepage, with guaranty that the crawler from Google and other search engines will find these fotos.
I hope this will help a little bit for the future.
Rgds.
Juergen
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Hey friends,
Concerning my photo of "Berge Stahl" I mailed bluepulz yesterday evening to name the copyright holder of this photo. Otherwise they have to delete this one.
Look, there's my name under the photo now!
We will see whether they ask for permission as of now or they take what they want once more ;-)
greetz
Max
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Strong action Juergen ;-) That will learn them.
Now sent a letter to the big boss of this company with the URL of your website (usually mail to the big boss will not be opened by others) and the photos will be gone in a day.
Cheers Fred
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Hi Fred,
this morning at abt. 10.00 Hrs my mail was read in London and 1 hour later the fotos were removed, but only my 4 fotos.
But I will remain the 4 fotos on my website for some more days and repeat such action if necessary.
Regards
Juergen
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clever and very proper move. good solution.
if they are not kind enough to even reply, apologize and reverse their wrongdoing (by removing pics used illegally) - they deserve this...
regards,
Peter
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Thanks Peter for giving me the notice.
This evening I received a mail from Helsinki, they write e.g.
We of course have not intentionally used any material not copyrighted to us or any material not freely available.
The pictures in question were copied from the internet from free domains by our webdesigner.
Most pictures on the website are taken by me personally or by the crew.
There was no intention to use material without permission.
Our webdesigner strongly denies removing any copyright stamps from any pictures.
I send them sample from the original fotos and links from the fotos were uploaded here, with my watermark.
Regards
Juergen
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miraflores wrote:
Thanks Peter for giving me the notice.
This evening I received a mail from Helsinki, they write e.g.
We of course have not intentionally used any material not copyrighted to us or any material not freely available.
The pictures in question were copied from the internet from free domains by our webdesigner.
Most pictures on the website are taken by me personally or by the crew.
There was no intention to use material without permission.
Our webdesigner strongly denies removing any copyright stamps from any pictures.
I send them sample from the original fotos and links from the fotos were uploaded here, with my watermark.
Regards
Juergen
Hi Juergen
Why oh why didn't they just admit fault instead of justifying their use of your shots on the seemingly untrue accusation that the photographs were not watermarked. Makes them look kind of silly doesn't it!
Regards
(2nd posting for those counting!)
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The lesson that these companies have yet to learn is when your little web designer is snooping around the net for images is to ensure the images you use for publication have traceability. If the image has no watermark, then DO NOT use it. I'm sure these companies have lawyers, but most times the executives I have met don't have a clue about copyright laws. If an international agreement could be formed, allowing for the levying of hefty fines...not leaving it just to the victim to prove their images are actually theirs and then maybe, just maybe, get some compensation, then you may see a turn around. Until copyright infringement gets some teeth, then this will continue.
Ever notice that you don't see no where near as much dumping oily bilges over the side anymore? So, there is a precedent for this and similar laws could be developed.
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"Why oh why didn't they just admit fault instead of justifying their use of your shots on the seemingly untrue accusation that the photographs were not watermarked. Makes them look kind of silly doesn't it!"
It is possible that someone else removed Copyright watermarking and put stolen pictures on some other Website first, and from there Crystal took them (in the second place)...
However this is NOT an excuse or justification for Crystal's actions, because simply: "if you do not know the real source of pics and you do not ask for permission to use them - then you do not have right to (re)publish them...".
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Peter and @ll,
the removed watermark is clearly to be seen. The webmaster from Crystal Pool must have seen it, and if there is some doubt keep the finger away.
http://i50.tinypic.com/23iw5f4.jpg
http://i48.tinypic.com/2kh53b.jpg
I will see what happens on monday, I'm in direct contact with them now.
Regards
Juergen
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Then the breach (guilt) of Crystal is even more obvious (evident)...
But I only said theoretically - even if this was not Crystal themselves, who removed Copyright "stamps" - they still had no right to use these pictures...
There is no excuse for them...
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this is not a "clogging"...
important issues should stay on popular forums, and not to be marginalized
Copyright is very important issue and is of interest to many of users of this community
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"Tony D. put up a good idea, I am just following it up, I am suggesting a special named Forum for this subject only so that members can use it to post any violations that they see regarding misuse of our photo's, the members would then be able to see at a glance who the Websites are that are taking our photo's."
so why finally Copyright related threads have been marginalized by moving to unpopular major sub-forum ?...
Copyright issues are important enough (for MANY users) to either retain them in one of the most popular major sub-forums or to establish a dedicated sub-forum for these issues...
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Thanks for making the topic sticky anyways ! This might be a good thing, if we can't have an own forum on this and it is respected.
However, as copyright is such a big matter, and either willingly or by accident often not respected, perhaps another thing could help:
On the main website a big, red text that Copyright-holder are the photographers who put online. Photographers must always be asked in case someone wants to use the photo.
As well, and I have NO clue whether such is technically feasible - not a watermark, but automatically with every photo (under the photo!!) comes text that says:
Copyright lies within the photographer, using photo without asking permission is strictly forbidden.
OK, might not look very neat to have that text under every photo, but at least it is not IN the photo but nobody could say that the folks have not been warned and playing innocent wouldn't be an option anyore !
It is just an idea.. not sure what you folks think about it :-D
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Seems that they also use my pictures.
Euro Corallo : http://www.stevo.be/displayimage.php?pos=-824
Let me know what you did because I see picture of Crystal Pearl is deleted.
miraflores wrote:
Peter and @ll,
the removed watermark is clearly to be seen. The webmaster from Crystal Pool must have seen it, and if there is some doubt keep the finger away.
http://i50.tinypic.com/23iw5f4.jpg
http://i48.tinypic.com/2kh53b.jpg
I will see what happens on monday, I'm in direct contact with them now.
Regards
Juergen
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Maybe change the title
" Stolen photo's and copyright abuse"
COKL wrote:
Thanks for making the topic sticky anyways ! This might be a good thing, if we can't have an own forum on this and it is respected.
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Does anybody knows what our 'legal rights' are in these cases of photo abuse?
Can we do something?? Do we have rights because the vessel is owned by the company who's using our pictures.
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Companies don't have any right over your photos. Period
When you read do whole thread you'll see several things you can do.
Cheers Fred
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Hi @ll,
after some more eMails to that companies my newest baby was born today.
http://www.sh-touri.de/fotos/crystal.html
The URL was reported to Google, so I wait if something happens.
If nobody helps me I help myself.
Regards
Juergen
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Hi Juergen,
Strong action again. Maybe sent them the link to your site as well?
Cheers Fred
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Yes Fred, I did.
I send the link to the site to 10 different people in both offices.
Regards
Juergen
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They removed my picture from their website, but NO sorry, NO answer, NOTHING
stevo wrote:
Seems that they also use my pictures.
Euro Corallo : http://www.stevo.be/displayimage.php?pos=-824
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Ken,
the best and onliest way to stop copyright vioalion is self protection, that means remove all the fotos from the web and upload no more fotos.
Is this a good idea?
I think not.
Companies must know (and I think they know it) that the are not allowed to take any copyright protected foto, drawing, painting, texture from the internet without authors permission.
But if the do and this will be found out I myself think it is very legal to name these companies, so as I did.
Regards
Juergen
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kensmith wrote:
This topic has had a very good run in the Forum and I am sure that everyone is now fully aware of the situation and the risks they take uploading their photo's. We currently have approximately 35,442 registered members of the site of which approximately 10 members have contributed to this thread, of that 10 about 3 or 4 have made more than one contribution to the thread, that I feel is not a very large percentage of the membership of the site.
Ken
Surely the fact that the topic has attracted some 1601 views speaks volumes for the fact that members do want to read about and contribute to this topic!
This is contribution number 3 from me, are we now having our Forum activity monitored by Admins to such an extent that they count how active we are?
Personally I always thought that the Forum was a place for members to freely discuss matter provided decency etc are upheld.
In your reckoning 10 have contributed to this thread but again please take into account the number of viewings by members.
Please also be aware of using the statistic of 35,442 registered members, we ALL know that this is a highly inflated number and certainly does not recognise those who are what we could describe as regular members. So statistics as quoted go out of the window I'm afraid.
One last thing - the heading of this thread is self explanatory - if a member doesn't want to read the latest posting to the thread then they don't click on the topic. Seems simple to me - rather like not switching onto a TV channel if you don't like the content.
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by kensmith on 2010/1/21 2:53:56 Hi Cornelia, Whilst I understand your frustration at having your photographs stolen there is something that hasn't as yet been mentioned and that is all the free publicity that all the links that have been shown recently are giving these sites, I would imagine they are loving it, do you really think this is a good idea. ? As has been said so many times there is not a great deal the site can do to stop this as it would seem that copyright and watermarks are not stopping this activity, it is one of the risks we have to take when dealing with the internet so sadly it is a fact of life. I have just browsed the Forum today Thurs 08-30 UK time and it is exactly as is should be, no complaints, no whinging and plenty of interesting topics for discussion, how nice it would be if we could keep it this way. This is addressed to you but not directed to you personally it is meant as a general comment to all members as something that we should bear in mind with regard to the activities in the Forum, everyone should remember that a lot of people look in on our Forum. Kind regards Ken
Hello Ken,
thanks for replying to me !!
I do completely agree with you, that this topic has been making the round more and more now, and you mentioned the relation of members in total and members who contributed to this discussion.
Then, I think members in total, there are so many who do not upload photos here, or some who do not care, which I think, is their own business.
I do care, because I do believe in things like fairness, and I think a company who is actually using imges for making money, should not get away with this. However, of course it is our own thing, what to do.
But I think, it is the wrong way to say "ok some people have a problem with it, we can't fix it so let's keep quiet over it".
I think, you are right in the way that it is not good to have this topic going again and again around this forum, but as well J
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What's the use of a forum other than discussing topics among people.
That's everyones liberty.
One who feels it's moaning, doesn't like it....
Well that's like watching television, just change the channel or even switch off the set.
Better, come up with a new constructive subject or idea, share news, upload your best photos.....
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"Thank you for your very impersonal comment, I will not reply to it in full, I will leave the members to make their own judgement.
Regards
Ken"
Facts, simply facts, nothing 'personal', so surprised you have even responded in such a manner and especially as you sent me a PM explaining the situation.
On one hand you want the thread to cease, yet you persist on making posts that keep it alive? - you cannot have it both ways!
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I am following this discussion from the beginning. In my opinion breaches of copyright are alway welcome / neccessary to be mentioned in the forum. If you are not interested, don't read it.
Stop maoning about the use of a forum and upload a picture worth stealing.
Stan
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Hello
Maybe it can be an end of the discussing.Before you can download a photo etc.
you have to be registerd and logged in.When you register the first time you have
to wait a week/month before you can download.Then it is not very interesting
for news/magacines use.
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This is not true.
My son is not a member but he can download any foto he wants.
Search the foto, right mouse click, save, ready. The next one.
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by Derek sands on 2010/1/21 17:43:32
Hi Everyone,
I will try to respond to as many points on this as I can.
Ken I believe is expressing his views openly and honestly as he sees it.
Free speech provided decency is not infringed is of course welcome on the forum. That does mean we all get a go at it, and express our personal views.
Copyright is important and I think that Juergen for me has approached it correctly. Despite Ken's fears the links are useful in identifying the culprits and the only free advertising they are getting is "bad press".
As Cornelia and others have stated these companies know that they are infringing copyright and some don't care!
A copyright notice will be added to all images in the new site, but not impinge on the photo. It is still ok to watermark within the site guidelines but of course these do not offer much protection with Photoshop and other software easily able to clone it out. To disable right click would defeat the object of a sharing site and offers not much protection from a screen dump anyway.
So we are dependent on the watchfullness of members and the honesty of some companies.
Oh one more thing, yes the forum is monitored of course to ensure I and others are able to respond to threads like this.
There is no other motive except to ensure anything indecent or blatant advertisement is removed promptly.
best regards
Derek
Hello Derek,
interesting to read your comments !! I am VERY happy to read that you do think, that free speech is supported on this forum, and you seem to recognize this as well - as long as it stays decent and objective.
However, I got the feeling that Ken is not in favour of having certain discussions on the forums, no matter how decent or objective it is. Just because, and just because "the new owners might not like this".
Now, I would like to know - is this the new way to go ? New owners want people to contribute photos but shut up ? Not discuss controveral topics in public "just because" (Just because means to me.. I do not understand a reason why not discuss ???)
I simply agree with that www.shipspotting.com can not protect us against copyright infringements but only can highlight a bit more to onlookers that photos on the site are copyright by photographer.
But I think, it is wrong to say, that this discussion must end.. just because, and not any logical reason given, just saying that "last year this time it was quiet".
Of course, in the future this, and other topics can come up but it is neccessary to keep open speech here.
If it starts to become like this that some coward people here, who are afraid of the new owners "might not like this or that" try to keep all here quiet, despite there are things some members might like to discuss, then it is not a good place to be, anymore.
Last not least, I would like to know the reason, WHY some moderators here do not like this topic being discussed here ?? Ken mentioned it, and Ken mentioned that you do think alike, and I want to know why.
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Cornelia and others,
First of all, I am not replying to this as an admin, but as a long-standing member of shipspotting.com. What I, and many others, see time after time is nothing but complaining and moaning by certain members of the site. I am not saying that you are doing it all Cornelia, far from it. Nor am I saying that we shouldn't have "free speech" by way of constructive comments and suggestions, of course we should. But there comes a time when some long-running threads become destructive rather than constructive. Yes, there are some positive suggestions here, but after a while anything positive disappears into a myriad of moaning that is far from decent or objective, to use your phrase. This has nothing to do with what the new owner might think, but everything to do with what members and potential members might think. God knows what anyone coming to this forum for the first time might think. If it was me, I would probably steer well clear. Is that really what we want? It would not surprise me either if we have lost members. Not because they are worried about copyright violation but because they are fed up with bitching and moaning. You and others say that it is simple to avoid such threads and just ignore them. Well, not quite. We all like to know what's going on and copyright violation is a valid subject to discuss. I want to read about it and see it discussed maturely, not read the same moans and arguments over and over again. That's the point.. it's not the subject that's the problem, it's the way people discuss it.
Phil
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Hello Phil,
I agree with you, that moaning and arguing is not what does bring us any further, also not as a community. I highlight what "polsteam" has written before, that as a community we should stick together, and keep an eye on eachothers, and help eachothers, as well warn eachother if possible.
This will have to be done in the future, as well.
I am against requests like Ken to "close a thread because discussion is not wanted anymore". Who decides what is wanted and what not ?
I think, J
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Reg. all this
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Hi Tony,
Sites of Shame would be a verey good thing.
I had a lot of photos stolen wen i was at sea never to be seen agin,untill a few weeks ago wen i was looking at a site and 3 of them hit me in the face. :-(
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philipbalf,
By the sounds of it you are talking about a different type of photographic theft - the actual physical stealing of the original photographs / negatives as distinct from the unauthorised use of a photograph on another website.
Neither is any less worse than the other when done deliberately however there are some people who think they are doing others a service by sharing other peoples photographs the problem is they claim ownership of the image.
From a web-owners perspective it is very hard to stop we have a statement on our website that reminds you before uploading a photograph that you must own the copyright of the photograph to upload however that doesn't stop people and the only way most website owners find out about these issues is when someone complains. So I would suggest not so much a websites of shame but uploaders of shame.
Richard.
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Hi guys
If anyone wants a picture of any vessels passing Brixham or entering Dartmouth just ask.
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Why not just share your photos here on shipspotting?
That's the way we do it here. ;-)
Cheers Fred
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Hi Tim,
First of all welcome to shipspotting.com. As Fred has kindly mentioned, we will be delighted to see your photos here. Please go ahead and post them, all we ask is that you take time to read the site guidelines/FAQ, but if you are not sure about anything just ask.
Cheers
Phil
:-)