ShipSpotting.com Forum
Shipspotters all over the world => Help and Advice => Topic started by: Kelvin Davies on June 29, 2010, 09:56:23 PM
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I follow the deletions thread regularly and I have noticed a degree of unfairness or perhaps ruthlessness creeping in lately.
This gorgeous photo is doomed:
http://www.shipspotting.com/modules/myalbum/photo-661419-GUNUNG+DEMPO
On the grounds the view is mainly of the bow.
But what about this one:
http://www.shipspotting.com/modules/myalbum/photo.php?lid=242912
It too is mainly a view of the bow. Yet it was posted by the same admin who proposes to delete Jorn's photo.
This one:
http://www.shipspotting.com/modules/myalbum/photo.php?lid=816838
is 99% stern but has not been proposed for deletion.
There are many other examples; in today's crop are some which do not meet the rules (sloping horizons, too far away etc), fair enough.
But what of those that are obstructed by street furniture, dock-side impedimenta etc?
Here's an example of a view being obstructed by a ship in the background!
http://www.shipspotting.com/modules/myalbum/photo-1138107-FAIRCHEM+CHARGER
Then this one is OK, apparently:
http://www.shipspotting.com/modules/myalbum/photo.php?lid=1008291
And so it goes; there are lots of examples of photos being deleted for "offences" that seem to be committed by the same admins that propose to delete them.
I have no intention of picking on any particular admin; the examples I chose were just the easiest to choose.
All I am asking for is a bit of fair play.
Or, to quote the bible; "Physician heal thyself".
I am sure this will be taken in the right spirit, I don't want to begin one of those old rounds of spiteful shouting as have been seen in the past.
Regards
Kelvin
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"This gorgeous photo is doomed:
http://www.shipspotting.com/modules/m ... photo-661419-GUNUNG+DEMPO
On the grounds the view is mainly of the bow."
what a stupid reason / explanation for deleting such a nice photo !
it seems sometimes "power" spoils people and takes good reasoning away...
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GENTLEMEN
YOUR COMPLAINTS WILL FALL ON DEAF EARS AS AN AGENDA HAS BEEN SET AND THE ADMIN WILL NOT LISTEN TO YOU
SO WHY BOTHER, JUST KEEP POSTING YOUR PHOTOS AND IF THEY DONT LIKE THE LOOK OF THE PHOTO THEN IT GETS DELETED
THATS IT :-? NOTHING YOU CAN DO
REGARDS
PETER
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Hey, "Polsteam" ! Do you really have to be SO rude and start here, to assuming things which you for sure can't prove ??? I think this is least to be said UNFAIR to all admins who are doing their job in the freetime !!!!
Although I am not involved in this case, I think before you are getting that low, and writing nasty things, you should contact one of the senior admins, I'd say Clyde - and talk the issue.
The usual procedure is, that one admin is looking through the categories, then shifting the photo to the "for deletion" category, where a second admin is looking at the photos !! What I know is, that most admins are deciding in favour of the member, not against members and playing "god" on the forum. No, that not at all !!!
In that case I'd say, that photo has a good right to stay, it's a bow-shot and not insulting any of the rules given in FAQ.
I'll forward this to Clyde who is a very experienced and objective administrator.
Meanwhile, I ask you to keep the discussion objective as well and refrain from ranting in a sensless and emotional way !!
Here the FAQ:
SITE STANDARDS THAT APPLY TO ALL PHOTOS
1. Resolution (image size) must be between 1024 x 768 pixels and 4000 x 4000 pixels.
2. File size maximum is 4000 KB
3. Photos must be sharp and correctly exposed.
4. No silhouettes will be accepted
5. Full ships only. Foreground obstructions must not restrict the view of the ship. For side views, bows or sterns must not be cropped off. Bow and stern shots may be acceptable if they show the vessel from the waterline to the top of the superstructure.
6. The ship must be the main subject. Distant views and shots where the ship is a small part of the image may be considered for deletion. Members should understand the limitations of their camera.
7. If posting multiple photos, the angle must change by a minimum of 30 degrees between photos.
8. The horizon must be level. If not, use free Picasa (see FAQ) or other photo manipulation software.
9. The date and location for the photo must be included in the description.
10. When uploading, members must comply with copyright law. Post only photographs for which you have copyright ownership. Other people's slides or negatives can only be used if their name and permission is stated in the description. No scans of ship photographs from publications are allowed.
SEE ALSO THE FAQs under the heading SITE STANDARDS FOR CATEGORIES with additional or varied standards applicable for a vessel category.
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COKL
POINT 11 ; SITE PHOTO STANDARDS APPLY TO ALL PHOTOS EXCEPT ADMIN
PERHAPS YOU CAN ADD THAT IN
MY REGARDS
PETER J.FITZPATRICK
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Less than 2% of current photos uploaded are deleted. In other words more than 98% of members take the trouble to comply with the site standards that apply to us all. Many of the recent photos transferred to the Consider for deletion category were old photos noted during reviews. See http://www.shipspotting.com/modules/xoopsfaq/index.php?cat_id=57
Consider means what it says. Sometimes a photo is returned to category because I think it does not warrant deletion. That does not happen often, because the Admins do not make transfers without good reason. They spend more time helping members than making transfers to Consider for deletion. For the deletion process see http://www.shipspotting.com/modules/xoopsfaq/index.php?cat_id=24
Members are notified of the deletion of any photo uploaded by them. All deletion notification messages include a thumbnail of the photo being deleted, the comment made by the Admin, and a link to the relevant site standard. Very few replies are received. Nearly all of those express thanks for being informed, and agreement with the process. Any complaints are answered and if appropriate passed on to the Webmaster for a third opinion.
Clyde
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Moons ago, I was a photo admin on this site, Now I am not.
I have to comment that there are nowadays a few - I repeat, just a few - submissions for deletion by admins that just should not be so!
There are, on the other hand, an awful lot of photos posted that are complete and utter rubbish!
Although they do occasionally get carried-away on the deletion thing, on balance the admins do carry out a very necessary task.
Go easy on them and learn from it, rather than scream in protest, when they take an objective view on your totally-subjectively-viewed photo!
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Clyde,
As I feared, my initial post has been taken the wrong way.
You refer to the site standards, deletion process etc.
The whole point of my post was to avoid an argument over standards and the deletion process. I was trying to point out that admins are deleting photos that do not meet the standards, while their own photos may not meet those same standards.
I suspect it is this which causes so much bitterness over deletions.
A level playing field is the term I had in mind.
Kelvin
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Kelvin
If you feared it would be taken the wrong way, why did you make the post? A member of your experience should have been able to predict who would say what after you raised the subject. You could have made the comment to me or the Webmaster by email or PM. If you were not happy about the response then you could have used this Forum
You say there is much bitterness over deletions. That is not the feedback I get from the deletion messages I send.
I am pleased that you regularly review the Consider for deletion category. If more members did that they would see evidence of what does not comply with the site standards that apply to us all. That would reduce Admin workload.
For current uploads, and during catch up reviews, photos uploaded by Admins are treated the same as photos uploaded by anyone else. That is a matter of pride as well as credibility
Clyde
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honestly, its no wonder I stopped using this rubbish site.. its like being back at school.
F L I C K R
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I guess I'll be accused of stirring things again. Now, someone is going to say if you know you are stirring things do not bother going any further. Then we all get in a huff and get personal. I have always tried to be constructive with comments rather than destructive. Lets all take a step back and expand on Kevin's original thought re deletions. I am all in favour of deletions ..there are not enough, a cull is required !! Using Kevins example of the bow shot (Gunung Dempo IMO 9401324) ... this was not a single shot of the ship ( and a cracking photo) ..a full set of views were uploaded and with another contributor there are now 8 angles. In my opinion 8 shots max of any ship are enough. Why can't we limit to eg 8 best shots in total, covering each angle. 30+ broadsides of the same ship are not really promoting the site quality. We can self police rather than Admins having the workload. If your photo is not as good as those before then keep it to yourself. If you think its better then upload it ... perhaps a "flag" could re raised within admins (simple to count this is number 9 of IMO /Name) that there is a possible better entry and if so remove the worse one/s. Its not an easy task but is a site of 700,000 images going on 1million , many of very dubious quality, better than one of 100,000 photos worth looking at? Perhaps its now too late, should have been Rule 1 at start. However, a plea, if your photos are no better than the umpteen of a vessel keep it to yourself. And if you have not read this forum you are still going to upload dross.
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There is proof of one thing: There are no different standards for us photo admins than for the other members.
I tell you here, I have as well put photos of an admin in the "for deletion" category - as well some of my photos were put by an admin in the trashcan !!
Both, with a good right. The ones were photos of ships in a distance, and I had accidentally uploaded doubles.
Many of us admins are not as long admins as we are a member of this site, so it can not be excluded, that the one or other old shot does not meet the standards. We are no different than any other member here, just trying to keep the quality of this site here up, according to FAQ. and standards.
Those, who had the rants about, above I would like to ask the question:
What is the real problem ??
What does stop you, to contact an admin personally (BY IM) when you see a photo, that you think, does not meet the standards ??
I think this would be the best way to do !!! If we as admins aren't sure, we will as well always ask another admin for advice and for hell's sake, we are not always SO sure that we do decide and there it goes !!
I must admit, when I am not sure, where upload, what and so, and if at all, I did ask an admin for advice, why not ? This, before I joined the team myself.
Well, let's stick together and communicate, after all we have all got same hobby and all what we want is, showing beautiful shipping pictures...
Keep on Spotting ! :lol:
Cornelia
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I crossed out all my photos posted here from the year 2008 ahead.
I did not share the criteria for deletions, taken by a few menbers.
Kind Regards
Tomi.
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Hi Admin. team kudos for the good work you are doing. I fully support you in this matter. Lets go for quality.
Don't forget to have fun
Fred
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Unfortunately, at lest 3 Admins missed my point entirely.
More than one has posed the question along the same lines as Ken's "If you didn't want to start another round as you say then why start this."
Start what? I stated quite clearly I was not having a go at the deletions criteria, whether I agree with them or not. I was pointing out that there were examples of Admins deleting photos while some of their own fail the same criteria.
Now I have stated it twice, it should be fairly clear.
I would like to say that one Admin saw immediately what I was talking about and sent me a PM, putting his hand up and he has reviewed and dealt with his own contributions where necessary.
An honest and fair Admin who did not react with the "don't pick on us" line but who acted honourably. Well done that Admin! (And a special mention to Derek too!)
As for the question "Why not PM the Admin?", there are 2 responses to that:
1. Multiple Admins involved and I can't figure out who some of them are with just 2 initials and no name
2. I sent a PM to Clyde somewhere around the beginning of the year in response to a request for someone willing to add some advice on the use of Adobe Photoshop (http://www.shipspotting.com/modules/xoopsfaq/index.php?cat_id=45#q194).
If and when I receive a reply I will let you know.
So, to summarise; I don't want to re-start the whole debate over what to delete etc.
I did want to start a debate over why the policy was not being applied fairly.
To be honest, I half expected at least some of the Admins to go on the defensive and respond with "Why are you picking on us, we do a thankless task" etc., rather than acknowledge that there may be an issue with the way the policies are applied.
I wasn't disappointed!
Regards to all
Kelvin
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hi kelvin ive just had a nice message from cokl to which i have just replied in the nicest possible way this is an open forum and you should be allowed to say what you think you have done that but THEY ARE NOT LISTENING TO YOU i understand what you are saying and it seems that one person is causing this problem maybe david s can reply to this thread giving his reasons for the deletions of these superb photos best regards
peter j.fitzpatrick
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Hi all,
I am admin of the categories Wrecks and Relics and Scrapyard ships.
During the last days I was without internet, but during my revisions I deleted only very very awful shots as these categories contain rare views of ships.
Should anyone feel that I am to strict, please let me know.
Concerning the deletion of bad admin photos. Yes there may be some, e.g. posted before the rules has achieved. But it is not fair to condemn us because we are not deleting our bad photos.
Anyway, if I find a bad one of mine old photos, I delete it for myself and I never complained, when my colleagues found one of my bad ones. But I simply do not have the time to go through all of my posted photos to sort out the bad ones. Shipspotting is my hobby and not my job.
And the interpretation of what is good or bad is always subjective, for that we are humans and no roboters. I prefer e.g. an unsharp photo of and old freighter to a new photo of QE 2, which has been posted several hundred times (subjective view).
For this different opinions, if a photo should be deleted or not, are quite normal. Anyway, in my categories, I am willing to discuss it, just EMAIL me
Gerolf
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Ken (and other Admins),
As Ken says,
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Bob,
Thanks for the comments; I think you have summed it up fairly well.
It is unfortunate that Ken chose to go into paranoid mode, rather than look at what the gist of my post was.
There is no "continuous sniping at admins". I was pointing out a fault with the way things were being handled in general, giving a perception of "one rule for us, one for them".
That point seems to have been taken well by most, with the exception of Ken.
Incidentally, Ken; which admin did I refer to? I was studiously avoiding referring to any admin in particular, precisely to show that I was not sniping at admins. The admin with whom I have been in contact was just the easiest example to point to, and he took it in the right way.
As for "why don't you do the job yourself"? I would love to but I spend a lot of time out of the house, working. Also, I can not get a decent broadband connection where I live and most of my life would trickle away waiting for the first few photos to upload.
I would be happy to help out in whatever way I can. I recently offered some helpful hints re the SQL mysteries, having set up and run a site using exactly the same software.
As per my previous post, I offered help, however trifling, to Clyde re photo manipulation. I didn't receive so much as a "Sod off" by way of reply.
Bob was right; I try to keep my gob shut for as long as I can bear it, then when I feel it is long overdue for something to be said, I shall say it. Heads in the sand may be good for ostriches but not for the well being of a community such as this. (I have to admit, this got me into all sorts of trouble during my time in the army!). For a problem to be addressed, it first must be acknowledged. More than a few members have been upset by what they perceived to be a faulty system. Hopefully, my raising that one particular issue will lance that boil and things will go well from now on.
Regards
Kelvin
PS Bob; we could have settled that argument with "Tanker for oil"!
Cheers
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Bob, I think you are saying the right thing here !! It is no good, if criticising the admins is a bad thing to do ! I think, constructive critic is always important, if there is something you see and that is not right, then just contact the admin - and that admin does very likely contact another one, to find a solution.
Lack of knowledge of ships.. you know we are all specialized on something. I for example look only after the containership category, nothing else. If I'd do something and someone not agree, no problem to talk about it, and find a solution.
I think, most people here should know, that admins are no any different than other folks here who do upload photos. Just the only difference is, that we were asked to help, or offered help and - do this, when we can find the time. We are no better and no worse than the rest, and just this way we want to be treated. With respect, as well.
After I read this here, I admit here openly I wrote a rather rude mail to the one who written this:
GENTLEMEN
YOUR COMPLAINTS WILL FALL ON DEAF EARS AS AN AGENDA HAS BEEN SET AND THE ADMIN WILL NOT LISTEN TO YOU
SO WHY BOTHER, JUST KEEP POSTING YOUR PHOTOS AND IF THEY DONT LIKE THE LOOK OF THE PHOTO THEN IT GETS DELETED
THATS IT NOTHING YOU CAN DO
REGARDS
PETER
I am not a cold tempered person and I as well don't shut up, but I think, posts like this are the last thing we need, and are the last thing that does really help to improve the situation. As well I think, not any admin, or any other member, no matter which position or how long on this site here, deserves this kind of disrespectful treatment.
I think, we should more concentrate on helping eachothers, and supporting eachothers, than nitpicking on eachothers. If someone does see a wrong decision by admin - please tell them !! After all, we are not perfect at all and it is very very difficult to do the righ thing, sometimes.
I think, this thread was after all started in the most possible wrong tone ! Instead explaining the problem, and demanding explanations by involved admins, as well other admins, and asking everyone of us questions, as well as offering and demanding improvements in an objective way, a few posts have been written in an insulting way.
So, let's speak in a civilized way, and use PM's and mails and all that to communicate, find solutions and enjoy the hobby together :-)
Greetings,
Cornelia
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In a perfect world we would not need admins because everyone would read up about the site standards and comply accordingly.
That fact that not everyone does begs the question "Why?"
In many cases it is because they have not taken the time to read them.
I would like to suggest that on the Photo submit screen that a message along these lines appears
If any of your photos are based on any of the following examples they may be deleted so please ensure you check that do not match any of the criteria below.
Then under that have a small selection of resonably large thumbnails with a red X through therm. Examples could include a silhouette, a partial view, an obstructed view, a bow/stern view, an example of an unacceptable interior shot. A small description based on each example underneath would also help
Then perhaps a note to say why maintenance of these standards is necessary.
It would never completely solve the problem but at least no one could say they didn't know.
Regards
Tony
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Hi Tony
A request has been made for the AIrNav site uploading screen to have a mandatory button to be hit acknowledging awareness of (linked) site standards.
Clyde
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Clyde said: "A request has been made for the AIrNav site uploading screen to have a mandatory button to be hit acknowledging awareness of (linked) site standards."
What does that mean, Clyde? Are Admins to be replaced by a computer program?
Will that program have built-in discretion?
Or has this request been made by an/some Admin(s) to cover his/their ass(es) and so there can be no protest or come-back from members who have had their photos binned.
It all sounds a bit ominous to me and I do hope that the technology is not yet available!
Any admin who thinks a computer could do the job better than him is, I think, in the wrong job!
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No Bob
It means members would not in future be able to state that they were not aware of the existence of site standards.
Clyde
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Id like to eat my words and take that statement back, if I may.
It was written in haste, rude and unnecessary.
Its just all the bickering and the fact that I had some photos of my own deleted.
Apologies, Fergal
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Sorry to have to drag out the bickering just a little bit longer but, having just had a look in the "for deletion" categories, I have to comment:
When members see first-class photographs in the
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Hi Bobs,
For the older photos, I'd add the IMO but any new photos I'd move to the Holding category which is a part of the Considered for Deletion category. A pm or email would be sent say please add an IMO. I think if admin were to add IMO's it would give the wrong impression to some members that it's ok to leave out IMO's since an admin is just going to put one in for them. I strongly feel in this case like many cases when IMO's, dates or photo locations are left out the photo will be transfered to the Holding Category and an email / pm will be sent to the member asking him / her to add an IMO.
Best Regards,
Cody
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Yes, that is ! As an admin you can change category, you can add information to a photo, you can put it in a new category ! One thing to do is: Change it, and write underneath, what is changed, and that photo was shifted to another category. It is NO reason to delete !!!
As well when horizon is not even, PM to the photographer, to fix it - by use of photo enhancement programs, no reason to immediatelly put into the category for deletions.
I hope, all admins do it like this, I know some do because - even me sometimes don't have all data or information on ships and get help by an admin 8-)
Clyde: Ken: If there is an evidence, that not all admins are working along the same lines, perhaps you could send out an information mail to all, as to what to do in such cases ? I know there are existing guidelines for us, but just in case there are still alot of queston-marks for some of us.
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Cody: Thank you for your prompt response but I am a little alarmed at what you say.
Your strong feelings should not come into it when carrying out your duties as an admin. You are supposed to be a helpful, servant of the site and its members and not a disciplinarian schoolteacher or policeman.
You should take heed of what Cornelia has just said and perhaps consult with the more experienced Admins as to how you should be interpreting and enforcing the site rules, not taking the ridiculous steps of consigning first-class photos like the one mentioned to the deletion categories.
It should take you an awful lot less time to overcome your
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As an "outsider" watching this thread, I must say that I fell to the side of the administrators. They do a fantastic job for this site; if not for them it would all be a mess. But someone likes "mess", as they always have to complain.
Regarding this abovementioned GRANDE ARGENTINA, it all could be avoided if the submitter followed the FAQ of this site, then it would be no complaints.
I had at most almost 1000 photos on this site, added in 2006-07, but I found out that most of them was of lower quality, scanned from old b/w negatives, So I have deleted most of them now, but still I think that many of my photos is not up to the quality required.
If anyone want to delete them, they are welcome, they don't even have to ask me.
What is wondering me, is that an submitter with 1000's of photos, sometimes have to come up with complaints.
Derek and Ken, keep up with your good work, I think you have almost all behind you.
Regard,
Arne
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Ken,
Merely offering some purely constructive advice which might even help make his job as an admin a little bit easier.
Bob
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Please terminate this summer theatre and start the new site promised for January.
Hans