ShipSpotting.com Forum
Shipspotters all over the world => Help and Advice => Topic started by: ventuari on August 05, 2015, 09:34:34 AM
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Hi.
I hope the administration take action ASAP.
Enough is enough.
In 9 years at Shipspotting I never complained about deletions, rules, or another members postings, but in this case I TOTALLY AGREE with Captain Ted and Jadran.
I request the deletion of Mr Paul Wille shots series. They are Public and Free. You can see those shots ( from a lot of years ago ) in several public sites.
This is Shipspotting not reposting or shipsposter site.
The same with the Vancouver archives. I just went to the City of Vancouver Archives site and right click and save to my PC a bunch of Mr Paul Willie previus uploads to Shipspotting from that site. They are Public and Free.
I can do the same with more than the 7000 shots remaining still there from Mr. Frost, Walter E. (1898-1988) the original creator-author of the shots. ( More than 7000 because Mr. Paul Wille just uploaded here more than 2220 from the Public Archives and the total Mr. Walter E. Frost fond contains more than 9000 shots)
So...tell me If I can upload (starting right now) the Mr. Walter E. Frost more than 7000 shots here.
I have plenty spare time to do it...
I dont complain about the historic part of the shots but the way members just copy from another Public and Free sites ( Public Archives, magazines, newspapers, Coast Guard, Of.sites, another ships relates sites, etc...) to upload here those shots. If you like those historic shots go the proper archives around the WWW and enjoy. Not repost here what you can see in the original PUBLIC site.
To the fellow members...take your camera and equipment, move your ass from the chair in front of your PC monitor, go out, and do SHIPSPOTTING. ITS NICE. Enjoy taking your own shots.
Mr. Administrators waiting for your input and please ASAP take action.
Regards.
ventuari.
P.S. Here its the link to City of Vancouver Archives, The Mr. Walter E. Frost fond, with more than 9000 ship photos ( scanned H.resolution, Free, Public, ...) More of 2200 of those shots uploaded here by Mr. Paul Wille, just right click...) and in first place in front of you the Belfast... >:( :o ???
http://searcharchives.vancouver.ca/index.php/ships-2
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UPLOADING PHOTOS from Photo archives of Public Domain and Free sites
I am curious to learn:
What is the present, current Website policy regarding the subject ... and what shall it remain, or, be revised further on.
Thank you !
Jadran
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Enough is enough uploading boring photos of all the same box boats !!
Have a bad day !
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Hi Everyone,
Firstly the shots from Walter E. Frost have been uploaded to the site for a long time now.
He is fully credited as the photographer. Paul is making them more widely known, as myself I even had no idea before that these photos were able to be seen on the internet.
There are several others posting photos with copyright on the site without problem.
They are known and on the list approved by the last Webmaster.
The decision to continue to allow photos to be posted or not cannot be decided by a member placing a thread like this in the forum and demanding action.
I have removed the ones without a named photographer that were posted earlier as the previous Webmaster had disallowed those type of photo uploads before.
Please keep any discussion sensible and cordial.
best regards
Derek
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Personally I have no problem with these photographs being reposted on here, provided they are properly credited, and there are no ownership or copyright issues. If I'm looking for a photograph of a ship it's easier to look on one website than several.
However it may be better to try and work in partnership with such websites especially if additional data is being added by members when posting on here. Also having links to such sites from this one could be useful. There could be much to be gained.
The discussion, though, does appear to be symptomatic of several that have been on the forum recently, which appear to revolve around exactly what this site is for. I guess with so many members there are many views on this, but not much clarity. Some feel it should be just about ship photographs, and are happy with a relatively narrow base of modern ships as long as the photographs is of good quality. Others prefer to see a wider variety of both modern and older vessels, with less emphasis on the quality of the photograph. Others would like to see more information around the vessels on the site, and more generic shipping news items. There needs I feel to be a bit more clarity around this, whatever the answer is it won't please everyone, and some members will leave, but, as the old saying goes, you can please all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time.
It was a little unfair, Ventuari, to make your comment about people getting off their ass and taking photographs, there many valid reasons why some members cannot just do this, such as age, infirmity, living a long way from the sea, etc., and sites like this are often their only contact with shipping. Unless you are suggesting that this site should just be for active photographs posting for the benefit of other active photographers, which is yet another version of what this site should be for.
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To the fellow members...take your camera and equipment, move your ass from the chair in front of your PC monitor, go out, and do SHIPSPOTTING. ITS NICE. Enjoy taking your own shots.
Great idea! *Looks at the AIS* Same empty port... Aw man! :-\
Either way, it's nice seeing "Any beautiful B&W ships for today?" since this mostly is the only site I see ships everyday, but if one member would just go ahead & make a list of sites where I can see same beautiful B&W ships in just few clicks, that would be nice too!
It's fine if you own those B&W photos/copyright from someone else you post here since they can't be found elsewhere, but reposting what's available for anyone from other site anyway is not really what this site is about.
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I have removed the ones without a named photographer that were posted earlier as the previous Webmaster had disallowed those type of photo uploads before.
Derek
Hi Derek
I am herewith not referring to Walter E. Frost photos, nor I previously was.
I have actually referred to a recent set of 3 photos reposted-out from the US Coast Guard archives - Public Domain (photographer not known).
I see your brief response (above framed in grey) and I thank you !
However, I still remain curious, and eager to exactly learn out of a written text in form of a statement, about the Website policy which we all should duly accept and follow as the contributing members of this esteemed Website,, therefore I feel free to repeat my query:
What is the present, current Website policy regarding the subject ... and what shall it remain, or, be revised further on.
Derek, I'm herewith not hurrying you up !
Take your time, as much as necessary, to construct an appropriate attitude & written instructions regarding the subject issue, for which I believe is a rather important part of the Website policy to be maintained the way you direct it now.
Kind regards,
Jadran
PS
However, looking from ventuari's angle & point of view, he has made the point, when asking if he may also upload the remaining photos of Walter E. Frost from the Vancouver archives onto this site.
Technically, he can do the upload very easy,, his point is ... is he permitted to do so.
Website policy, rules, requirements and standards implemented by the website should be equally required to be accepted/followed by all the Members.
Would be utterly worthy, and praised with a big 'bow' for the Website, if no exceptions or maybe some 'privileges' are granted to any or even only one member (we should all be very equal Members of the website, and all of us members should be treated, within the same level & rights of the common membership).
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The spirit of this site is in posting the ships members have seen as a part of a hobby. Whether that hobby is among landlubbers or seafarers doesn't matter. The images posted from collections, such as those of Walter E. Frost fall within that spirit, but in being available to the public, can be posted by any member. Site policy has pursued that interest with this, and other freely shared collections, by keeping the original posting and deleting any subsequent duplicates, regardless of the poster.
In my opinion, however, images from sources such as the US Coast Guard and Navy do not follow the same spirit. Yes, they are public domain, but solely because they were taken by employees under orders, and paid for with taxpayer money. There is no hobby interest behind them, just the pursuit of the, in many cases, anonymous photographer's job. As such, the primary intention is for them to be available to all taxpayers of the nation, as logically, they are the owners of the image.
Kind Regards,
Kyle
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Well said Kyle, Nicely put.
Jadran, of course Policy of this site is not as well known as it should be but the standards are there as a guidance. However as you may be aware the site is going to be reviewing all standards and guidelines as soon as possible and has engaged someone to do this.
Once we are at the formulation stage then members will be encouraged in a dedicated forum to help us with policy and standards. At present it would not be wise to change things before this review. So existing policy and standards will have to do for the present.
There are many things to do on the site and it is my intention to see these through to completion. A start has been made with several new appointments of admins including a dedicated correction team. Two new Webmasters have also been made for the Australasian and America's time zones. New tools have been introduced to help the correction editors and Henrik is working on others. The issue of the demise of Grosstonnage has left us with some options.
We are trying to get a link up to another database, but if this is not successful then we may have to update and input new information ourselves manually. At the moment this is not possible due to the old link with Grosstonnage.With nearly 2 million images a manual input would be some undertaking for a team of volunteers!
There is a commitment of time each day by the volunteers working in the admin team and some of us are spending a lot of time each day working on, or for the site. Its not possible for
most of us to commit as much time as perhaps we would like. But we cannot be expected to sit at the PC for long hours each day like some hermit. We are doing our best but as I said there is some many things that need attention we are looking at long term solutions not quick fixes that will come back to haunt us later on and need doing again.
best regards
Derek
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After reading some of the comments that have been posted, one word springs to mind and that is intolerance and surely we have enough of that in today's world already.
This site has the capacity to accept pictures of all genres and as long as the photos in question conform to the requirements of the site they should be available for the membership to be seen if they so desire.
I do not like some types of photos posted on the site, however I respect any other members right to be able to have them to look at and any members right to upload them.
If change is wanted, which I do not think is needed in this case, then the way surely to get it is by reasoned discussion and not a tirade against one member who has put old pictures on the site which many members have enjoyed.
Lastly having experience of knowing a person for whom moving their ass from a chair in not so easy to do I think this remark was more than a little unfair.
Discuss by all means, but polite reasoned discussion please.
Kind regards
Derek
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Jadran, of course Policy of this site is not as well known as it should be but the standards are there as a guidance. However as you may be aware the site is going to be reviewing all standards and guidelines as soon as possible and has engaged someone to do this.
Once we are at the formulation stage then members will be encouraged in a dedicated forum to help us with policy and standards. At present it would not be wise to change things before this review. So existing policy and standards will have to do for the present.
Derek
Thank you very much Derek !
Your explanation to me regarding your intention how to resolve the subject issue, and the way how you intend to do it, together with all the remaining your intentions you have mentioned under your comprehensive 'entry', are indeed very encouraging and I truly support your constructive approach and efforts, that you are putting for the best possible resolution of the current problems, and how you are also having at the same time in mind, a possible improvement of the Website features that would achieve in general a higher quality of the site, in some certain time to come.
It seems, now, that every forthcoming day, will mean a better day for this Website.
Thank you once again,
Jadran
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Hi Paul,enough is enough ,keep the oldies coming,as you say a box boat is a boxboat.regards steve55.
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Hi everyone
I'm afraid I'm being a bit naive here, but my understanding is that this site was originally developed to enable members to upload photographs that they have taken and to share them with other members. It was never designed to permit members to upload photographs taken some 50 years ago by someone else. OK, there may not be a copyright problem, and many are of great interest, but surely uploading these photos is not in the original spirit of the site. And in any case it seems these photos are available to anyone to source elsewhere...
I am now custodian of a collection of colour slides taken at various ports in the UK and Europe from the late 50's and 60's, yes, many Liberties etc etc, but they will NOT be uploaded here or elsewhere as the copyright remains with the photographer, not with me. And in any case, I did not take them, much as perhaps I wish I had.
Allan
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Take a breath Ladies. This is an entirely volunteer outlet. Of course there must be some sort of format. But lets try to appreciate the value of a volunteers time to add value.
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One wonders what a simple comment can cause !!!!!
btw,,I don,t like box boats either,,special like recently the MSC Zoe where over 50 pictures were uploaded
in a rather short time, BUT one thing stands out,,,THEY ARE TAKEN BY THE POSTERS !!!
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Hi Everyone,
Any policy change on this site from the current ones cannot be driven by the opinions of a few.
Neither can it be done in an instant, to many things to consider.
We are working on all aspects of this site which has grown to a size where any team of volunteers would struggle to keep up day to day.
There are so many things to do and the site had been left to stagnate rather than progress.
We have made a start and will continue working on it. Are we doing the right things I wonder sometimes as most members don't say anything at all. Once the review of site standards is under way all will be able to express an opinion. If you wish that to include a vote of no confidence in the present team then say so.
My tenure on here is only a temporary one until things are running well enough for me to leave. Derek Lilley would also like to take a back seat. So in the future we will be looking for two new Webmasters to take on what we have started, and joining our two other Webmasters that are based in different time zones.
best regards
Derek
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"I am now custodian of a collection of colour slides taken at various ports in the UK and Europe from the late 50's and 60's, yes, many Liberties etc etc, but they will NOT be uploaded here or elsewhere as the copyright remains with the photographer, not with me. And in any case, I did not take them, much as perhaps I wish I had."
Allan and what if the photographer would give you permission to upload them? Have you asked for that? What is the purpose of "being a custodian"? Are you preparing an exhibition somewhere? Questions, questions...
When I was actively shooting in the eighties, I was never alone along the New Waterway. I have been wondering for a while where all the old photos have gone to. Is everybody sitting on them hoping to earn a fortune on Ebay? The only photographer currently posting is Mike Griffiths and his shots get the credit they deserve.
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Pieter - I quite agree with your sentiments. I hate to think how many collections are wasting away in a box somewhere and probably will never be seen by anybody because of concerns over copyright. I struggle to understand the sense in keeping something hidden away when it is quite possible the photographer may be quite happy to have their legacy shared with people all of the world.
It's such a waste of a resource which may not have much monetary value, but can be priceless to enthusiasts such as ourselves.
I wonder what Walter E Frost would have said if he knew that one day people all over the world would be enjoying his photos thanks to the wonders of the Internet - he may even have approved
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Sorry, but i absoluteley do not agree with the opinion @ ventuari. For example: Paul Wille
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Hi Peter and other fellow shipspotter.
I think Ventuari has a point and with respect to what has been contributed to this discussion by others such as Jadran or Capt. Ted I won't come to the conclusion that everyone regards the uploads from the Vancouver archives as a site-highlights. Nor seems it to be, like you say a "very small minority" that prefers photographs shared which were actually taken from the very member who posts them. So do I. And there are actually some spotters around here, who support the pool of historic shots on this site with photos taken by themselves decades ago. Therefore I won't neccessarily ascribe someone a lack of historical awareness, it is rather, like Simonwp said before, a competition of many different attitudes towards the character of this site.
Regards, David
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but david, in a competition it is common practice that someone has to win. On this site I would prefer to that we have peaceful co-existence, where both the current every day ship hunter and the poster of historic images (with permission) can do what they are most happy with, without having to continuously defend themselves against each other. It is simple, what you don't want to look at, you simply skip.
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Hi Pieter,
yes, you're right. "Competition" is probably the wrong expression in this context. I like the word "co-existence". The only competition however takes place in discussions like this one, where different opinions bang together:)
Nevertheless, I encourage you Ventuari not to post shots from the Vancouver archives yourself. As for me, there are enough B&W photos already around and I do prefer your colourful shots taken from the Canarian rocks and the Spanish coatsline.
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Hi Pieter
In reply to your comment about being custodian of a slide collection. The photographer regrettably passed away some years ago and his widow gave the slides to the Maritime Society of which I am currently secretary. The slides are now the property of the Society, although as far as I am aware the question of copyright transfer was not discussed or agreed so still belongs to the photographer, certainly not with me. The slides are on occasion used in slide shows to members at our monthly meetings and also used to illustrate articles in our monthly newsletter. I am sure I could amass hundreds of hits with the Uruguayan Liberty ship, and many other notable exotics, and I would love to be able to share them with members on SS, I'm sure they would be most appreciated - but I simply can't - they are not mine to share.
Allan
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I can understand, Allan that under the current conditions you cannot. But the question is, have you asked/suggested the heirs/owners of the copyrights whether they would object in having those shots being published here, and if so under what conditions? And FWIW I am hardly interested in a Uruguayan Liberty ship, but I am sure it is not the only ship in that collection. ;)
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A great many donations of photographs and slides were made to groups like Marine Society and World Ship Society long before the dawn of the internet and website's like this. At that time it was seen as the best way to enable others to enjoy the collection. It is a shame that now there are so many ways to share these collections, the custodians feel constrained by worries about copyright, ownership etc., which results in the collections not being shared, which is probably the opposite of what the donor originally wanted.
I have scanned all my slides and photographs, and donated the originals to the WSS, while retaining the scans. However I've told WSS I'm quite happy for them to use any material as they see fit, with suitable acknowledgement, while I retain the use of the scans, including posting on here. Because I've taken them myself I see no problem.
However the current debate is if this particular site is an appropriate site for archive material not personally photographed by the poster. I think it is, subject to the copyright proviso, but it is obvious that others have different views.
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I think ventuary made a very good point here and I agree with him, although his wording is strange and very unlucky. I think, this site is for people who take and have taken photos of ships as a hobby. Not for press photographs and not for any kind of photos from archves. My opinion, just what I see. I quickly scroll over these black white photos only if its an old German coaster I look closer. Place here for all type of ships,that for sure.
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Regarding what should and shouldn't be on this site, I am absolutely in favour of the old ship photos posted by the likes of Paul and Gordy. These would likely not see the mainstream light of day and are interesting in both a social and historical context.
They also help the website in the eyes of the internet public as the site is increasingly seen as being the first point of reference for ship photos both old and new. If in doubt, post a photo of the latest Maerk triple E fresh from the builders at the same time as a shot of one of Erikson's barques under full sail, or a 1920s tramp and see what gets the most attention!
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Remember...
Walter E. Frost (1898-1988) was the world's first shipspotter ...
Thank you for your support who's concerned !
I'll be back !
Best regards from Amsterdam,
Paul Wille
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Thanks to Paul! I just came aware of this great tresure box from Vancouver due his uploads, if he had not uploaded some of this lovely photographs i would never noticed Walter Frost's great work from the past. So please keep on uploading Paul and to the others who disagree, keep calm please! i know it is a hot summer in some part's of the world right now... ;)
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Derek Lilley wrote: >> This site has the capacity to accept pictures of all genres and as long as the photos in question conform to the requirements of the site they should be available for the membership to be seen if they so desire.<<
Derek Lilley put it nicely in his post, thanks Derek.
I am one of those who's contribution to the site is rather minor, however who enjoy browsing the site, looking beautiful ships' photos, old and new, b&w and colour. So, let keep the copyright things to admins and lawyers; and let this site be open to all photos, old and new, if these meet requirements of the site. There are many of us who would never see numerous historic photos if these were not uploaded to this site.
It is up to site management to set the rules how to proceed with this matter in the future, however I think they should not be guided only by the strongest voices.
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I think ventuary made a very good point here and I agree with him, although his wording is strange and very unlucky. I think, this site is for people who take and have taken photos of ships as a hobby. Not for press photographs and not for any kind of photos from archves. My opinion, just what I see. I quickly scroll over these black white photos only if its an old German coaster I look closer. Place here for all type of ships,that for sure.
I totally agree with Cornelia Klier.