Author Topic: J.J. Sietas Shipyard insolvency  (Read 11322 times)

Offline SteKrueBe

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J.J. Sietas Shipyard insolvency
« on: November 18, 2011, 10:54:12 PM »
Hi there,
just read that J.J. Sietas Shipyard in Hamburg/Neuenfelde filed a petition for insolvency proceedings yesterday.
[http://www.abendblatt.de/wirtschaft/article2098230/Deutschlands-aelteste-Werft-ist-ueberschuldet.html]
Very sad story for the once famous shipyard and the 700 employees.
Brgds,
Stefan

Offline Captain Ted

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Re: J.J. Sietas Shipyard insolvency
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2011, 01:38:40 PM »
Indeed said, they were the forerunners of all yards which builded small coasters which became later bigger and bigger. I by myself started sailing in 75 on a socalled 424 GRT
type vessels the MV TORSTEN and were later on a few otehrs of them. They always had something different and advanced. Hope they can somehow manage to stay open or keep going
Would a real blow to that area
NOW!!!,,,if we could get rid of the sailors,,how safe shipping would be !!!!!!!!

Offline Allan RO

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Re: J.J. Sietas Shipyard insolvency
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2011, 03:41:03 PM »
Hi Guys

Very sad, but at least Sietas appears to be closing itself rather than the EU imposed closure of the yards in Szczecin and Gdynia.

Allan

Offline sjosame

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Re: J.J. Sietas Shipyard insolvency
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2011, 04:00:25 PM »
Aren't they building three danish ferries at the moment?

BobS

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Re: J.J. Sietas Shipyard insolvency
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2011, 07:01:45 PM »
Allan:
I know you are an expert on all things Polish shipping and shipbuilding but I do think you lose objectivity and impartiality on the subject.
No-one really forced the Polish industry or the nation to come screaming and kicking in protest out of Comecon into the real world and the EU, did they?
Like those in the eastern part of Germany, the Polish shipyards did enjoy a few years' competitive advantage as 'cheapie' shipbuilders compared to the rest of Europe but times have moved on and things have changed for the people of Poland (presumably/hopefully for the better compared to the communist era).
The downside is that the problems of the 'real' world of capitalism and the EU also affect those countries that have 'come in from the cold' and  there is no longer any protection from the economic troubles that have sunk Sietas and the majority of other West European shipyards. Thanks to that Thatcher woman and her 'war' with the EU, the British shipbuilding industry was the first to go.
Bob

Offline Jens Boldt

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Re: J.J. Sietas Shipyard insolvency
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2011, 08:32:05 PM »
Well, it isn't the first time Sietas filed for insolvency. The shipyard already did that once back in 2009. And also like in 2009 Hamburg Senate is willing to help Sietas with the tax payers' money. jobs will be lost in the oncoming months, no doubt, but as I understand it everybody's confident that Sietas can (again) be saved. Ships on order (5 at the moment) will be completed as planned. Norderwerft shipyard (part of Sietas) is not affected by the insolvency.

Offline Jochen Wegener

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Re: J.J. Sietas Shipyard insolvency
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2011, 08:47:20 PM »
is willing to help Sietas with the tax payers' money.

Yes, Jens, with the german tax payers money it would be better to rescue sietas than banks in greece and very rich people there who spend their money to buy houses in London or to take the money taxfree to luxembourg or bahamas. It's a pity with the german so called gouvernment.
rgds Jochen

Offline Allan RO

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Re: J.J. Sietas Shipyard insolvency
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2011, 08:56:25 PM »
Hi Bob

I think you are not being fair blaming that 'Thatcher woman'.  Frankly it was the unions that scuppered the industry in the UK, the miners, the steel workers, and not forgetting the idiotic unions of the shipbuilding industry with their frequent demarkation disputes.  Why we had to have boiler makers unions, electricians unions and heaven knows what else, all squabbling as to who does what; when if we had had one 'shipbuilders union', there would have been no such disputes.  And it would have made sense to have sited steel works near the shipyards rather than, for example, at Corby !!!   But we would still have had overpriced coal, steel etc. making our shipbuilding industry uncompetitive.

Regarding Poland, I wonder how many of the thousands of displaced shipyard workers hsve been forced to leave the country and find some sort of work elsewhere ??  Or are they now on the 'dole' and being supported by the state ??  Another form of 'subsidy'.  Far better to have subsidised the shipyards and kept them in work.  How many subsidies are still being paid to the St. Nazaire shipyard ??  And how long will the Croatian yards be allowed to survive ?  I guess Sietas only survived as long as it did by outsourcing hulls to Romania.

I would have thought that if the EU had any sort of responsibility to its own industries, it would have been worthwhile keeping these yards open, otherwise very soon the only place building ships will be China.  They can afford to undercut all competition, and when there is none left they can reap the rewards and charge what they like for their ships.

Allan



Offline Jens Boldt

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Re: J.J. Sietas Shipyard insolvency
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2011, 09:33:38 PM »
Jochen, no criticism intended when I spoke of "the tax payers' money". What money could they use if not ours? I think the shipyard should be saved, too. So calm down, I totally agree with you. No more money for any bank and I'm counting the days until our next national election...

BobS

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Re: J.J. Sietas Shipyard insolvency
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2011, 10:40:16 PM »
Allan:
It was not widely publicised at the time but the cessation of direct government subsidies to the nationalised British shipbuilding industry was part of the deal by which Margaret Thatcher managed to screw the European Commission for the massive rebate of Britain
« Last Edit: November 19, 2011, 10:55:03 PM by Bob Scott »

Offline davidships

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Re: J.J. Sietas Shipyard insolvency
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2011, 05:55:57 PM »
and not forgetting the idiotic unions of the shipbuilding industry with their frequent demarkation disputes.  Why we had to have boiler makers unions, electricians unions and heaven knows what else, all squabbling as to who does what; when if we had had one 'shipbuilders union', there would have been no such disputes.  

No Allan, you are conflating history.  That was indeed characteristic of most of the shipbuilding industry prior to nationalisation.  But reflect that that is what the unions had sought for a long time.  Callaghan's message to the unions was "there you are, now do your part".  In the decade from 1977 demarcation disputes had disappeared, industrial action was rare, and "no strike" deals and wage restraint the norm.  The unions were united in the "Confed", which seemed to me quite a coherant body.

Maybe all this was too-little-too-late for the industry, and certainly not enough to bridge a cost gap between UK and Korea/Japan, or a price-gap with excessively-subsidised German production.  I say "excessively" because, as Bob has already noted, while the UK was sticking to the EU's subsidy cap, Germany had the double dip, enabling relatively-efficient but high-labour-cost German yards to sell their modern standard design products at prices above the international market level to KG owning companies, whose high tax-paying partners (as was said "doctors and dentists") gained personal benefit from excessive depreciation levels.  The Government successfully peddled to the European Commission the semi-truth that these arrangements were not shipbuilding subsidies, that they were not linked to building in Germany (but precious few KG-owned ships were built abroad in that era) or to shipbuilding (yes, property investments were the alternative but had no significant effect on international competitors).

Maybe the UK was still a relatively high-cost producer, even in the more efficient yards at Sunderland, but that was as much to do with outdated plant and equipment, yard layouts, generally conservative designs and poor production plannning alongside the remains of the earlier era of antediluvian unions.  Given that internal situation, to then have a Government which made no secret of its abhorrence of public investment in industry, when everywhere else was receiving at the very least TLC and political support, made the UK industry's market position impossible.  It all went downhill pretty fast after that.

David

Offline polsteam

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Re: J.J. Sietas Shipyard insolvency
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2011, 10:07:33 AM »
Allan:
I know you are an expert on all things Polish shipping and shipbuilding but I do think you lose objectivity and impartiality on the subject.
I do not think so...
No-one really forced the Polish industry or the nation to come screaming and kicking in protest out of Comecon into the real world and the EU, did they?
1. Poland had not been in Comecon for some time before joining EU, because there was no Comecon for quite a time before3 accession.
2. Not the accession itself is the problem.
The problem is - the terms on which Poland acessed.
It has to be admitted Poland's government is much to blame for the situation the yards got caught in...
In contrary to many other industries and areas of economy, Polish government (then led by post-communists, so called "social-democrats") Polish government HAS NOT negotiated any "vacatio legis" or special "transition time" terms for Polish yards....
Like those in the eastern part of Germany, the Polish shipyards did enjoy a few years' competitive advantage as 'cheapie' shipbuilders compared to the rest of Europe but times have moved on and things have changed for the people of Poland (presumably/hopefully for the better compared to the communist era).
They were "cheapie" not because of subsidies, but because of competitive price of labour.
Norwegians, French and German yards are employing cheaper skilled workforce from Romania, Turkey, also Poland to be more cost competitive... Is that a sin?... Why criticise Polish yards for being competitive because of competitive labour force?...
The downside is that the problems of the 'real' world of capitalism and the EU also affect those countries that have 'come in from the cold' and  there is no longer any protection from the economic troubles that have sunk Sietas and the majority of other West European shipyards. Thanks to that Thatcher woman and her 'war' with the EU, the British shipbuilding industry was the first to go.
The major downside for European shipyard empoyees, European expertise in shipbuilding, also CLIENTS (European shipowners) is that the whole European shipbuilding industry losses its "critical mass" needed for keeping expertise and experience (also feedback from industry to (marine, naval architecture and marine engineering related) technical universities and scientifical establishments)...
CESA - Community of European Shipyards Associations - often "cries" about dangers connected to this "loosing this critical mass" in shipbuilding in Europe, but these cries are pure hypocrisy, because CESA has not spoken a word in defence of "shipbuilding industry critical mass" when EC was imposing harsh measures against Polish shipyards, while EU was bailing out (with taxpayers' money) greedy banks borrowing like crazy to Greece (while they have been already knowing that these loans cannot be paid back and "in any case", when something goes wrong - Europaean taxpayers would fill the gap) and EU is bailing out insanely again. Please, be also so kind as to remember that just around time two Polish largest newbuilding yards (contributing veru much to "keeping critical mass in European shipbuilding" when they were still alive) were closing down (forced by EC) there were HUGE bailouts paid out by taxpayers to AUTOMOTIVE industry in Germany, France, etc...
Why help car manufacturers and not shipyards ?...  Because cars are "more sexy" matter to "ordinary man" and a voter... not many voters and "average consumers from the street" would (directly) buy a ship... Many of us buy cars...
The great stupidity and insanity of EC decision to close Polish yards was the fact that there was NO REASON for this, because Polish yards HAVE NOT been directly competing with the majority of Western Europe yards.
French, Finnish and Italians were great in cruise vessels, Finnish - additionally ice strengthened vessels and icebreakers, Dutch - dredgers and tugs and luxury megayachts as well as offshore craft, Norwegians - offshore vessels, etc., etc. while Polish yards were building mainly sophisticated chemical tankers, containerships and car carriers...
despite using "polsteam" for my nick I have NO personal (professional) or business connections with the company of the same name

Offline polsteam

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Re: J.J. Sietas Shipyard insolvency
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2011, 10:30:30 AM »
« Last Edit: November 21, 2011, 10:35:19 AM by polsteam »
despite using "polsteam" for my nick I have NO personal (professional) or business connections with the company of the same name

BobS

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Re: J.J. Sietas Shipyard insolvency
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2011, 12:17:01 PM »
Polsteam said: "Polish yards were not harming the "competition environment" within Europe, because Finnish, Italians and French were building cruise vessels, Dutch - dredgers, etc. while Polish were building containerships and car carriers."

That is exactly the reason why the Polish (and East German) yards have gone through such turmoil of late. They failed to specialise like the Finns, Italians and French with their cruise ships or the Dutch with their dredgers. They kept on building "easy" ships, like containerships and car carriers - in competition with the Koreans and Chinese, against whom they had little chance price-wise. Then, when the market crashed, and demand evaporated, they had practically no chance at all of getting a viable share of what was left.

Sietas, too, kept on building "easy" containerships - until market demand dried up and even those aforementioned "stealth" subsidies, having the hulls built abroad and the Neuenfelde yard's clever, standardised construction methods could no longer keep the company competitive.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2011, 12:21:15 PM by Bob Scott »

Offline davidships

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Re: J.J. Sietas Shipyard insolvency
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2011, 12:48:14 PM »
That is exactly the reason why the Polish (and East German) yards have gone through such turmoil of late. They failed to specialise like the .... Dutch with their dredgers. They kept on building "easy" ships, like containerships and car carriers - in competition with the Koreans and Chinese, against whom they had little chance price-wise. Sietas, too, kept on building "easy" containerships - until market demand dried up and even those aforementioned "stealth" subsidies, having the hulls built abroad and the Neuenfelde yard's clever, standardised construction methods could no longer keep the company competitive.
Interesting that the Northern Dutch yards have continued to build "easy" ships successfully with .... um .....Polish hulls (or from further afield)

DAvid

 

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