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Author Topic: Copyright (yet) another opinion, and more  (Read 2890 times)
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E. Vroom
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« on: January 28, 2010, 10:39:50 am »

Sharing my view here about this issue. Comment if you please.

What's the site about?

First of all I’d like to start on reviewing what’s the site all a bout starting with its name

Shipspotting.com, Ship - Spotting.

I remember at the first summit in Rotterdam a speaker told us that, in the old days it all started with people registering on a piece of paper of what ships they had seen at what time and at which place.
Next sharing these sightings with other enthusiasts they met and discuss about what they knew about these ships, thus learning a great deal about all what’s to be known about  the ships, it’s owners etc…

Basically I feel this still is the core of our site today.

Adding Photos
However, initially meant just to illustrate these sightings, photos were added to tell the story what the ship looked like at that time and place. What one knows about the ship can be added in the text box. Other members from around the world can even add their knowledge to it.

All of this can be viewed free of charge from around the globe by anyone. WHOW isn’t that just great!

Deletions
At some point rules about quality of the photos came in. So if a photo doesn’t meet the standards it gets deleted ALONG WITH THE INFO ON THE SIGHTING ITSELF.
What a shame.

Copyright
Just because copyright exists, most of us (me included) feel we need to protect our images.
But can we really?
Well we have discussed that over and over, and the answer is, no not today.

It’s the same as one copying/downloading some music or movie etc.. (Who hasn’t done that?).
And more to the point, where do we get our info from that we put in the text boxes?
He/She who is without sin…..

Photographers on this site feel they have to authorise being copied or even get paid for it.
To the latter I say, if one feels to have grown to a professional photographer, shouldn’t you advertise your photos other than on our site alone? You might get better results on revenue.
Maybe we have members that can advice on how to go about that?

Informing on copyright infringements
Yes, why not, and yes why not have a special place for it on the forum.

And,….just kidding, …To add another competitive item to the site, we can have a count which photographer gets copied the most. ;-)
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« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2010, 03:11:48 pm »

I like the way you have described the forum it is set out well but yet again the subject of copyright has raised its head again, no matter which section you look at on this forum you come across members moaning about copyright, sometimes two or even three threads in one section.
Like I have said before the new name for the new forum should be "The Shipspotting Copyright Forum" although I feel sorry for the member who have their photo's misused I am afraid its a cross you have to bear.
At this present time there are 10 members logged in and 187 visitors, how does one know that any of these visitors are not downloading members photo's to use or maybe earn money out of, I think that visitors should not be given any access to any part of the forum, just let them read an introductory and if they like what they see then become a true member.
In my forum visitors are only allowed to see the forum titles with no access to anything else.
And perhaps the Webmaster can set up a separate forum just for the moans and groans about copyright to save the boredom of seeing them on every page     :lol:  :roll:
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miraflores
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« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2010, 03:48:31 pm »

@Geoff Preece
You have not uploaded a single foto to this site, but you feel authorized to write a comment about copyright or misuse of copyright?
If only members can see the full foto is no guarantee to download them, who will know which member has taken a foto?
Just a question: Why do read the topics regarding "Copyright?"

I will not give any more notice when I find out someone has stolen my fotos, I name these companies on my own website, as I did some days ago with the company Crystal Pool.

Regards
Juergen
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Fred Vloo
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« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2010, 05:15:02 pm »

Thats a shame Juergen,

I think you should not give in to people who are not entitled to comment. I mean they may say what they want, but what's it worth? I hope you keep on giving notice.
Cheers Fred
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miraflores
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« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2010, 05:41:29 pm »

Fred, of course everybody can say what he wants, but I worry about the title
"The Shipspotting Copyright Forum"

Rgds.
Juergen
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Cornelia Klier
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« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2010, 05:50:48 pm »

The thing with the copyright.. again and again !!! And so long again, as long it does happen.

As long as copyright infringements do happen, and as often they do happen - this will not make them be legal. It's illegal, let's face it.
If someone does decide to leave the garden furniture outside overnight in the garden and some idiot steals it, the fact that access was easy, does not mean that it is legal to take it !!

Same with photos.

However, furniture and other things do cost us money. Taking photos does cost us money too, if you face it - but we do it mostly just for fun, because of being interested in ships, because enjoying to take photos.
Still, this does make nicking photos from this site not legal.

That's the point, nothing else ! In the law, it does not make any difference, whether the photo was taken by a professional photographer or someone who call him/herself a "shipspotter".

Actually, the situation on this forum here is following:

Some people DO care about respect of copyright. These ones get furious if some companies which are using the photos to make money do not care about even asking us ! Paying is another thing. But askiing would be the thing to do.
OK, so the discussion comes. With a good right, a protest against something that is simply not just unfair but illegal.

The other bunch of folks here, do not care at all. They are happy, to take photos, to put these onlines, to read history of ships, whatever. They would not be bothered if a huge company does use the photo, without asking them, using it for making money.

You see, you have two opinions here. Of course there will not be an agreement because each one is entitled to have own attitude and opinion about this.

WE do have a huge forum, for several topics. Or let's say about as many topics as you like.

Hey, if you are in the mood for it, you can start a thread and discuss with people who share an interest, which one is the best looking super tanker out there in the world  :lol:  :lol: !!
You can, but I bet several here would simply find it boring. I would. I'd read the topic, I'd read perhaps the content of the first post. Then, I leave the thread because I have something else to do.

There are MANY THREADS here which do not hit my interest or the interest of other members here. If you have such a big community as we have here, this is just natural.

What I do regard as natural as well is, that I think we all do not only know how to use the keyboard but we also are able to read and we are able to use the brains !! No matter how old, or how young we are.

So, the most natural thing for me to do is: Thread not interesting = LEAVE IT !!!!

Threads with the content "copyright" or any other topic that might not hit 100% interest of everyone are not "clogging up forums". Because, if you are intelligent persons you are able to click it away and choose - for you - more suitable topics to read. There is no clogging up. I just checked, and there is alot of diversity on topics here. Sometimes we have this hot topic, another time it's another one.

Please people, do use your intelligence when reading, as well when posting. If you find a topic boring, or if it does not touch you or if you don't give a sh+++  just stay away if you do not have anything useful to contribute.

I think it is o. k. to say what was said in the first post. That this site is an enthusiasts site. But as soon the topic "copyright" comes, there is people who are complaining that this topic does exist, and that it does "clog up the forums" which is real nonsense.

Of course, free speech is essential to this site, and I think it is also important to give a critical opinion sometimes to a topic, or someone coming who does see the whole thing from a different point of view like Ed's first post here. But I think, it is also a time when realizing that if the topic does not interest me, let the ones who ARE interested talk. And turn to more suitable (for you) things.

I for one will always put it on the forum when there are copyright infringements, because it is simply not legal and the least, the companies should learn that they can not just take photos from the internet. And, it does help believe me, I gone through this. Either they ask next time, remove photos and some pay.

I did once say, that it would also be possible to open a thread "copyright infringement by" and putting the links there. Members who care, can then look through their gallery and take the actions they think that are suitable.
To such a thread there does even not have to be a big discussion. Affected member could talk about result, or what he or she has done. Not more.

Big discussion comes always up when some members who seemingly is not able to read stumbles onto the thread and whinging that it is "clogging up forums" blabla... This is the thing that is not very fair, and it is just adding oil to the fire. I think, these topic can be dealt with by affected members and information can be shared, but the last thing we do need I think, is people stirring it up !!

OK, this is just my personal opinion and it is perhaps worth, to certain people to respect that it is worth for some to discuss.
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Gerolf Drebes
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« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2010, 06:30:46 pm »

Hi all,
I personally do not have anything against  the threads about copyright. Let us those people who like it, discuss.
And I am thankful to Ilhan and Jürgen to inform me, that it is happening with my photos as well. I find it OK, that someone, who finds it out, informs the others. We do the same with casualties, Renameings, Lay ups .....
But that does not prevent me from uploading well knowing that ther are people who steal photos.
What I hate is complaining and mocking all the time. For me the site brings a lot of fun, so I do not complain, if some photo of me is stolen. And I comment beautiful photos, which I see on this fantastic site.
Gerolf
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« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2010, 06:31:52 pm »

Great post COKL totally agree with all that you have said in there, like you said everyone has there opinion, I did state earlier that I feel sorry for anyone that has taken the trouble to go out of their way to take some excellent photo's like that are on this forum and then they find that they have been used in a newspaper or the likes so that someone can make money out of them.
I agree this is WRONG and I would not uphold it myself and if I saw it would report it to the owner, what I was getting at was that it just goes on and on about it.
Why not start a post "Illegal photograph thefts from this forum" and list everyone who has stolen or misused members photo's make it like a shame board, other members would then know who to look out for.

Thanks again COKL for the interesting post.   8-)  ;-)
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E. Vroom
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« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2010, 09:04:57 pm »

Yes Goeff,

that's what i meant with"Informing on copyright infringements
Yes, why not, and yes why not have a special place for it on the forum."

And yes Cornelia lets keep it clean and to the point.

Mention the infrigments and if you deal with them share with the community
how you did solve the problem and what results you made.

I read you  "gone through this. Either they ask next time, remove photos and some pay."
I ask, how did you solve this, did you just write them. Did you use a lawyer? Was your result always 100% or have you also been ignored by some. And when ignored, what did you do or will you do next?

Maybe the solutions that you hand, can be added with anyone elses expierences.
Which in the end may lead to a topic in the FAQ's "how to deal with copyright infringements."
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« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2010, 07:36:08 am »

Hi Edphoto,
Exactly what I was trying to suggest, think you are better at putting it into words than I am.
The points that you have listed would make the basis of a good register to list the offenders, like you say, the results of contact with them, whether legal action was taken, and any results.
Other members could then check the list, it could also show if there was any pattern to the offenders, mind you this would be better done on a spreadsheet type format.

Regards  :-)
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« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2010, 09:08:09 am »

Quote

Geoff Preece wrote:
Hi Edphoto,
Exactly what I was trying to suggest, think you are better at putting it into words than I am.The points that you have listed would make the basis of a good register to list the offenders, like you say, the results of contact with them, whether legal action was taken, and any results.
Other members could then check the list, it could also show if there was any pattern to the offenders, mind you this would be better done on a spreadsheet type format.Regards  


Hi Geoff

"good register to list the offenders" - probably a word of caution here, I would imagine that many a member and web site owner will be aggrieved if they make it to this list with both parties having come to an agreement on use.Unfortunately it is far too easy to assume that a photograph hosted on Shipspotting.com has been 'stolen' - there must be many examples where permission from the copyright holder has been obtained.

Regards (posting #2)
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« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2010, 09:17:34 am »

I agree Steve its a very difficult one to police, really I cannot think of an answer to it. :-?
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E. Vroom
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« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2010, 11:39:30 am »

Hi Steve,

Good thing you pointed this out here. Such situations could even lead to facing charges of slander either to the poster of the message itself and/or the site as a whole, and damage our reputation.

Possible solution:

Never mention the words "breach of copyright" or copyright "infringements" etc...
Until proven so. Not even including the word "possible, or alleged"

Just to mention: "shipspotting photo seen on website X ,with a copy of the link to it" would be a valid and neutral alert to something that might be....

It would be up to the copyright holder to react appropriately.

While not everyone is following the forum, a direct PM to the copyright owner might help as well.
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