Author Topic: Maersk to replace danish officers by asians  (Read 24773 times)

Offline Morten

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Re: Maersk to replace danish officers by asians
« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2009, 09:15:07 PM »
I'm guessing you work(ed) in the deck department then (not that there is anything wrong with that :-D )? All the navigators I've talked with (i'm part navigator, but mostly an engineer - dual officer) say "But I think the asians are just as good as europeans" - and I tend to agree for the deck/bridge department.

The problem is down in "the hole". They are taught how things are supposed to work and know everything there is to know about calculating everything from M.E. consumption to reactive power for a asynchronous generator, but give them a wrench and tell them to overhaul a separator and they have no idea what to do! While I worked with M

Offline Brian Cawkwell

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Re: Maersk to replace danish officers by asians
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2009, 08:08:56 PM »
I have just been talking to a guy who has his masters ticket , he works on a diving support vessel nand he was telling me that the Asians have been giving a $100 a day rise, he said there are on $10 a day more than the british officers !!
This turns everything on its head ,the british stafff are now after a wage rise, I wont name the vesel for obvious reasons.

Offline Morten

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Re: Maersk to replace danish officers by asians
« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2009, 10:55:26 PM »
I think the big difference (At least that was the case for maersk officers) is that Asian officers don't get any pay during vacation.
A danish junior officer with M

Offline john mccorquodale

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Re: Maersk to replace danish officers by asians
« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2009, 08:38:04 AM »
I was exposed to many different nationalities whilst in senior ranks but my final trip as Captain was with Asian officers and it ended my seagoing career. It is the culture with which we will never merge, Europeans tend to have a 'can-do' attitude whereas Asians have a need for constant guidance. They will generally follow the rules and where there is no rule or guidance they will stall. I have experienced this as Chief Officer, Master and Pilot. I have sailed with some useless Europeans but, anecdotally, there would be one bad apple in ten, whereas with Asians theer would only be one star in ten. I left the sea as I was forced to sail with third world junior officers and it just raised my stress level. I worked for Maersk many years ago with British officers and the company's standards were upheld by the loyalty and competence of its officers. It looks as though Maersk have succumbed to financial pressure and it will tarnish their reputation accordingly. Very sad.
Deputy Haven Master, Avonmouth & Royal Portbury

Offline cazenove

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Re: Maersk to replace danish officers by asians
« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2009, 09:29:36 PM »
I would not want to get into whether some of the posters here are prejudiced or not.To generalise and state that "Asian" officers are worse of than "European" officers does seem rather unfair ofhand. Asia is composed of many many countries(many more than Europe), in terms of population is about 3-4 times the size of Europe and people are so different depending on where you come from.The same is the case with Europe and to generalise is rather pointless and does smack of ignorance.

As many of you might know, Asia is booming and there are millions of high paying jobs all over the place. Shipping isnt exactly most peoples career choice(like in Europe) and it isnt the best or the brightest who get into the field as there are many more jobs...far more than currently in Europe where most economies are in recession whereas India grew at 6.5% the last 12 months and China has grown at close to 9%.

I actually work as a manager for a shipping company and have a whole lot of Europeans and Asians working with me and I actually do think that the Asians are far better at their jobs....I would like to think that I either-1)simply have a rather good set of Asians or a 2)bad set of Europeans.

I dont think I can generalise basis where one is from...The "Can-do" attitude does NOT depend on your culture but basis what your parents taught you to do and its something which is personal.

To generalise is stupid..but then again, I guess most people on this forum have already made up their minds basis the fact that they "might" have worked with 100 Asians(at the most) over a max of 40 years..100 people dont represent close to 3.5 billion!!

Unfortunately going forward I think I'll just stick to enjoying the wonderful pictures of ships on this site rather than read some comments of a few posters who dont seem to have a clue as to what they are taking about...May I suggest a trip on a ship to Asia...to see the "can-d0" and the growth and the energy in Asia???...and yes, the managers there are Asian too.

Offline Federico

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Re: Maersk to replace danish officers by asians
« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2009, 02:13:30 PM »
I'm piloting Maersk Line tankers in Europe practically every day, generally product carriers, but also Aframax. As you know the fleet is big and it is normal to go onboard Maersk with Danish flag and Danish Officers in the morning, while boarding a sistership in the afternoon with Liberian or Singaporean Flag and Asian Officers. There is an abyss of difference in the handling of the ship too many times. What left me very out of mind is the fact that an Indian Captain of a 25000grt asked me my wage! I replied without problem that depending on taxes and port traffic was variable between 5000 and 7000 euro. He started to laugh and said me that it was not possible because his wage was 15000 usd per month plus bonus. He insisted mine should be better. What was making me upset was the fact that he was not concentrated on the manouvre, was not following her, nor the engine command or the rudder indicator..., but at the last he underlined on the pilotage and tugs bills the note: "Manouvre performed with three tugs and bow-thruster!". No problems for me but for sure he didn't realize at all that the current abeam of us was pushing with 3 knots to the terminal. So the tugs were there to slow down the lateral approaching of the ship! I see terrible future for pilots hearts! :-D

Offline Morten

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Re: Maersk to replace danish officers by asians
« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2009, 03:52:38 PM »
I'm sorry, but I can't help but feeling deeply offended of someone who is sitting behind a desk looking at numbers who come and say that I am ignorant and prejudice... I'm speeking from actual EXPERIENCE (as are the other posters here)!
I know that "shipping managers" think they know about what happens on the ships because they once spend 4 days on a ship as part of the new employee program, but they just don't! I'm not going to pretend that I know anything about your job and your little world in your cubicle, but you're obviously not a professional mariner! WE ARE! So please refrain from pretending to know more about how our colleagues are than we do and I'll extend you the same courtesy!

My personal experience from - you know - ACTUAL SHIPS are that Asians lack the assertiveness and the initiative of their European counterparts, it's just the way it is. I've worked with Thais, Philippinos, Indians, Chinese and a few indonesian crew members (more than a hundred different for sure in just a few years, do you actually know how many people are on a ship?!) and the general theme is that they are very good at their job as long as they are told exactly what to do, but they don't do anything of their own initiative and they don't think beyond exactly what they are told! I'm not attacking asians for being asians, I'm saying that the people that we get on the ships aren't as good at their job as the more expensive alternative! The big problem here is the way they have been raised and educated! It is a completely different mindset - one not cut out for a job at sea - maybe in a cubicle planning schedules but not something where turning a wrong valve might cost a million dollars (and it easily can on a ship).

Furthermore, I think that M

Offline Bart Hakze

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Re: Maersk to replace danish officers by asians
« Reply #22 on: October 25, 2009, 06:27:41 PM »
I have followed this conversation and I think it's time to enter my 50 cents.

During my career I have become very down to earth about the whole "what nationality is on board"-issue. In the beginning I was very proud to be an officer and I had "We are the best, nothing can beat us mentality" Nowadays I just have a bit of whatever-mindset.
Whether there are Indians/Chinese/Filipino/English/Dutch/Danish or you name it nationals on board; the ship will always get from A to B, discharged & loaded again...time after time. Sure, there are differences in ways of working, keeping up the maintenance and all other aspects of the daily life o/b but in the end the shipowners only look at the costs.
And that's all there is to it.

The best way to get the new people in the right frame of mind is to start at the beginning: at Maritime University. a company I used to work for sponsored one in the Philippines, they paid for the whole education of certain people and they would sign a contract to sail for them for 5-10 years after school. You get them in young and start molding them immediately. result: almost as good sailors as the Europeans but less costly.

Anyway: everybody has his or her own opinion about this matter, including examples, bad or wrong but in the end there is nothing you can change about it because the office has the last word.

I just went to work for a company with interesting jobs, nice ships & good colleagues, doesn't matter where they are from.
aka SeaBart

Offline Malim Sahib

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Re: Maersk to replace danish officers by asians
« Reply #23 on: October 25, 2009, 06:45:56 PM »
Shipowners do love Asian Officers, and for good reason.
Whenever an edict/policy change appears from 'the Office', the response is usually "yes sir, certainly sir", unlike those dastardly Western types who will ask often ask difficult questions as to why this has happened, or will indeed have the temerity to raise concerns to said office staff whenever they believe something to be unworkable/pointless/illegal/dangerous.
Our Asiatic cousins are also excellent in the eyes of the office with regards to the day to day running of the ship. The paperwork is normally immaculate and there is usually plenty of it, they do not waste time on such expensive, archaic and time consuming pastimes as physical maintenance. Indeed you could (and often do) walk aboard the most horrific of ships and find the ISM/Company paperwork in the office to be in excellent order, excellent indeed.
All those terrible Westerners do is order continual spares, ask awkward questions regarding maintenance decisions and of course, most heinously of all, rebel against their Masters back at HQ when slavishly insisting on following such obviously OTT and irrelevant regulations such as SOLAS and MARPOL.
Plus, just to gild the lily in addition to those advantages mentioned, they are often paid a fraction of the cost with much less leave - thumbs up all round in the boardroom!
Yes, I suppose those few of us Western Seagoing types left could learn a lot from our cousins in the East...

Offline Bart Hakze

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Re: Maersk to replace danish officers by asians
« Reply #24 on: October 25, 2009, 08:06:23 PM »
@James_C:
I guess that helps as well indeed. We obnoxious westerns with our big mouths always think we know better.  :roll:

And 9 out of 10 times it actually is true as well............ :-D
aka SeaBart

Offline Fotojoe

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Re: Maersk to replace danish officers by asians
« Reply #25 on: October 26, 2009, 08:49:03 AM »
ah - that was ironic, wasn't it ?
otherwise i cannot agree with u my friend.
Owners like us do not like asian officers. Having Korean Charterers who insist in Korean masters on board their chartered 6,500 teu vsls it leaves us poor Owners with masters who always nod their heads, saying yes yes, but without any understanding of what you want to communicate to them. Without caring about the masses of stevedore damages happening especially at the US Westcoast ports and the enormeous losses of lashing material in every port due to careless shore-labour. This as just one point to mention.
Philipino deckhands are useless as well, at least in the Baltic winter, cause their freezing-point is is reached far earlier than that of European hands. They
prefer to stay in the warm superstructures rather than handling lines, check lashing or remove ice and snow. Same applies to work inside. If they got to do some paintwork to whatever, they work so slow that the paint dries on the brush and they get stuck to the bulkhead  :-)

Offline William Crusoe

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Re: Maersk to replace danish officers by asians
« Reply #26 on: November 10, 2009, 09:20:31 PM »
Gents
With the grestest respect I have seldom seen so much racist rubbish. Yes cost is of course a factor as it is in all business. Try to find anyone who can match the Asian work ethic at the cost. These guys are eager to learn. Have you been to East Asia recently? You will find people who's life revolves around education. Korea (South) for example has the number two best educated population in the world according to the UN. Many degree educated Asians work in menial positions to earn Western salaries. On average they are brighter, keener to work and learn than their European counterparts. The issue you are missing completely is one of culture, ie  respect for seniors and desire to pleaese that is  endemic in most Asian cultures. Understand the culture and these people will be the best work colleagues you ever had. Also be aware that, in general,  Asia has by several orders of magnitude the highest number of science and engineering graduates in the world and a population with an average age under 30. Have some respect, these people will take over the world in your lifetime.

Offline frederic rohleder

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Re: Maersk to replace danish officers by asians
« Reply #27 on: November 27, 2009, 08:02:31 PM »
gooday,
the future will tell us who is right.
trollson

Offline Malim Sahib

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Re: Maersk to replace danish officers by asians
« Reply #28 on: December 05, 2009, 12:55:30 PM »
"The issue you are missing completely is one of culture, ie respect for seniors and desire to pleaese that is endemic in most Asian cultures."

The Ship managers dream - crews who will never dare question their orders.

If your forecast of the futures turns out to be realistic, then logically it can only be a matter of time before the aforementioned managers are themselves replaced by Asians.

The irony of that will most certainly not be lost on those who have 'gone before'.

Offline Milind Balaji

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Re: Maersk to replace danish officers by asians
« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2010, 03:46:34 AM »
While I understand the sentiments expressed on this thread, you should be extremely careful about loosely throwing around terms like "low-quality, standard persons"....what are you implying? That these asian officers are somehow less competent and inferior?
FYI...APM has some massive officer and cadet programs in Asia which are going very well. While I do not think that Maersk is doing anything benevolent in recruiting from Asia, it is understood that this is purely a economical issues and infortunately Asian officers provide cheaper options. This is very unfortunate for all the Danes that are being slowly phased out. Before my present shore based position I sailed for a few years (with many nationalities) and even though there are some valid points above (occasional lack of assertiveness, etc), what we are talking here is about safe, competent and highly trained seamanship. I know for the fact that a lot of the guys Maersk is turning out there from India and the philippines are some of the hardest working folks...totally different culturally than the europeans but the work ethic is commendable. The post about about the "freezing point of Phillipinos".....hmm....what sort of racist nonsense is this? Want to talk about some cultures being a tad lazy on board....lets talk about the Malays and Singaporean I worked with during my time with APM Singapore. The Filipinos and Indians would run rings around them, the Indians technically and the Filipinos on deck with their fantastic work ethic. So stop the generalization of all Asians without more information.
Coming back to my point above, try to be cognizant of the fact that were are a lot of people, many of them seaman from all over the world on this website so any form of prejudice on your part would be highly recommended to be kept to a minimum.

Thanks
......

 

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