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Author Topic: Deletion of Ancient Motor Vessels under 20 m  (Read 2247 times)
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pieter melissen
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« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2019, 04:53:58 pm »

The disadvantage of Equasis is that it does not deal properly with older ships, Miramar does that much better, and while their modern stuff might not be totally up to date, especially about the owner's info, it is most of times good enough for shipspotters as we are. My ideal Shipspotting world would be where this site can serve to illustrate the Miramar data set. i know that there have been contacts with Miramar regarding this subject, but I don't know how or if the negotiaitons ended.

In the mean time, I have been approached as a WSS member whether I would be interested in supplying the Markit photographic database. I suppose I am not the only one. Markit is offering a silver package in exchange. Who has access to this database?
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davidships
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« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2019, 05:47:18 pm »

Thanks Pieter

IHS Markit = Sea-web
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DEREK SANDS
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« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2019, 08:15:29 pm »

Yes I have been approached as well via the WSS for photos in exchange for access to information.
I am considering it but at present I find little time for research so have not bothered to contact them
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Bob Scott
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« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2019, 10:26:13 pm »

IHS Markit is the successor to Lloyd's Register-Fairplay (LRF)
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Phil English
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« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2019, 12:12:53 pm »

What I'd recommend to all:
1) Learn how to use the site properly
2) Take on board what the webmasters and admins write (quite frequently) on these forums regarding the site's technical and data shortcomings

Thankfully, most of us do and can live with it!

Brgds

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dirk septer
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« Reply #20 on: August 27, 2019, 01:06:04 pm »

Meanwhile we all got sidetracked from my original question why the photographs of my classic wooden vessel ORBA were deleted:

Why are ancient motor vessels under 20 m like Wanderer:

http://www.shipspotting.com/gallery/photo.php?lid=2100604

deleted?

Is it not time to add a new category "Classic wooden yachts" with
no under 20 m restrictions?

The photographs of my beautifully restored classic wooden yacht ORBA
(built 1927 by Lake Union Dry Dock) were yesterday deleted because of
this under 20 m restriction.

While maintaining literally hundreds of photographs of these boring,
huge floating condos (aka cruise ships), why restricting these few
rare surviving and lovely restored and maintained wooden beauties?
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Kyle Stubbs
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« Reply #21 on: August 27, 2019, 01:46:00 pm »

Yachts under 20m are not accepted. That's about the only clear line that can be drawn in regard to that form of vessel.

The term "classic" in itself is subjective. Is a wooden yacht from the 1970's classic? How about a fiberglass one from the 1950's? Or, what about that brand new yacht that's built from the plans of a vintage yacht from the 1930's?

The only way to establish a clear line, where we won't continue to bicker over our "feelings towards the matter" is to enforce a hard line based on a fixed trait of the vessels in question, which is already established. Regardless of age, if it is a yacht 20m or over it's fair game, if it's under 20m, don't post it.

If the yacht is under 20m, but was once a commercial vessel of a type allowed regardless of size, a fishing boat rebuilt as a yacht for example, I'm fine with a sort of exemption. Otherwise, once a yacht, always a yacht. "Historical status" is too subjective.

That's my opinion.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2019, 04:14:07 pm by Kyle Stubbs » Report to moderator   Logged

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andrecas
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« Reply #22 on: August 27, 2019, 02:34:05 pm »

Dirk's 3 photos of "Wanderer" uploaded 8/20/14 are in the AMV category.
According to description, the vessel measures: 17.07 X 4.08 X 2.23 m.
For those rarities under 20 m, regardless of category, include a "one of a kind/only photo on site" rule...?
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dirk septer
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« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2019, 04:28:29 pm »





I am not talking about a wooden yacht from the 1970s, nor a fibreglass one from the 1950s.... What is the cut off year for the current "Ancient Motor Vessels"  anyway?

What is the problem for a separate new category "classic wooden vessels 50 years or older?"
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davidships
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« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2019, 09:51:30 pm »

Just to note that I am letting this thread run for a little longer (on the ancient motor vessels subject only please) so that additional members can contribute - then it will be reviewed by Admin colleagues.

I can confirm that no specific definition of "ancient" is being applied as a matter of agreed policy (neither is there any FAQ on this category), and I know nothing of what may have been intended when the category was invented in the first place.  Any information on that from long-standing members would be welcome.  For me "ancient" is not the same as "old". But in any case I agree that there should be some specific guidance on what may be included.
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Kyle Stubbs
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« Reply #25 on: August 30, 2019, 01:06:47 am »

Dirk,

You may not be talking about a wooden yacht from the 1970's now, but in 5 short months your proposed category would start to include them! Around my parts, Seattle, wooden Chris Craft older than that are so worthless they are being used as homeless encampments (not joking, it was in the news last week). I've seen photos showing the same story up in your waters.

And why is a wooden vessel any more interesting than a steel or fiberglass one? No other category on the site is dependent on the material of construction, so why should this one be? In my opinion, the fiberglass yachts of the 1950's can be works of art, featuring car-inspired fins and other jet age extravagance. In comparison, 1950's wooden yachts are stodgy and hardly different from those of the 1940's or 1960's.

And that's exactly the point I was trying to make, interest in small vessels is incredibly arbitrary. Would you consider one of those moldy Chris Craft I mentioned above as interesting now as you would have considered a 1930's wooden yacht 20 years ago? Remember, even harder than judging interest by age is judging interest by condition, so a category open to nicely restored vessels would be equally open to those in a near-wreck state.

I'm not saying we shouldn't look at changing the category allowances in favor of smaller older vessels. But "opening up" some category that is already a dumping grounds of sort, like the ill-defined Ancient Motor Vessels, or adding some category with no lower boundary don't seem like wise options.

Perhaps expanding Motor Yachts into two parts would be a better solution. For example a " Motor Yachts Newer than 50 years (20 m and over)" category alongside a "Motor Yachts Older than 50 years (12 m and over)" category. That sort of compromise could expand the interesting vessels that are added, as well as weed out the potentially "over-abundant" forms of debatable-classic vessels no one would probably look at.

As for the Ancient Motor Vessels category itself, perhaps it would best be served as a home to working vessels converted to yachts, retired working vessels, or something of that sort. Apart from old yachts, which by site guidelines should be in the yachts category, that seems to be the primary focus, anyways.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2019, 01:11:12 am by Kyle Stubbs » Report to moderator   Logged

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Michael Wirth
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« Reply #26 on: August 30, 2019, 06:28:14 am »

First of all: sorry for sidetracking the discussion, but I always wanted to ask these questions Derek answered (thanks again!) and I thought they might be not completely off-topic here.

I agree with David, ancient is not the same as old.

As a historian by education, ancient for me is at the beginning so to speak - ancient history relates to the beginnigs of our present culture and civilization.

But 'ancient' today also connotates outdatet, not longer in use.

I can only speculate, what the inventors of this category had in mind, but I wouldn't put pictures of yachts there (as said before).

I would use it perhaps as a category for early motor vessels as a counterpart to "Steamships, operating and preserved".

And I agree with David - some guidlines and examples would be helpful.

One last question: can admins create new categories? Or who else can do this?


Best regards,

Michael.
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Phil English
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« Reply #27 on: September 02, 2019, 11:29:14 am »

This thread is simply highlighting that the "ancient motor vessels" category, with its lack of definition and guidance, is being used as a dumping ground for photos of vessels which would otherwise not be accepted on this site. I'm not sure what the category was originally intended for, it's always been a curious outlier.

Just my opinion.

Brgds
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DEREK SANDS
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« Reply #28 on: September 02, 2019, 02:48:28 pm »

The category "Ancient Motor vessels migrated from the old site with no alteration.
Basically no one knew really what to do with its Title or in some cases its contents.
From what I remember it was tidied up a bit and then left in situ.

Maybe Dirk would like to take it on and introduce some order to it. It deserves a better and more accurate title thats for sure. However that what would seem simple to amend was not, any ideas ?

brdgs
Derek
« Last Edit: September 02, 2019, 07:24:01 pm by DEREK SANDS » Report to moderator   Logged

davidships
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« Reply #29 on: September 03, 2019, 05:10:43 pm »

Thank you all for your comments and views.
I have asked my Admin colleagues to review this discussion and to give consideration to how toake this forward.  I will come back to this thread in due course.

Just for info, we are able to alter titles of existing categories, and to create new categories if necessary.  We are able to move photos from one category to another.  The only thing we cannot do is to delete a category while it still contains images (this protects the interests of members - photos can only be deleted as part of the normal deletions process which considers individual photos against the site standards). And we can of course also add or revise FAQ/Guidance relating to individual categories.

Also for information, the Ancient Motor Vessels category (together with "Steam Ships (Operating and Preserved)" and "Museum Ships") is currently without a Category Admin.  Such position requires only a committment to review all new uploads to the category in a reasonably timely manner to confirm that they are in the right place (and moving if necessary) and compliant with General/Category Site Standards (and submitting to "Considered for Deletion" where appropriate).  A general interest in this type of vessel, and a willingness to review existing content, would also be welcome.  If any member would like to take this on, please contact me direct by PM or, preferable by email at webmaster@shipspotting.com .

This thread is not closed and further comments will still be taken into account.


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