Author Topic: SAFMARINE MERU ablaze following collision with NORTHERN JASPER  (Read 32454 times)

Offline MO Roy

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Re: SAFMARINE MERU ablaze following collision with NORTHERN JASPER
« Reply #30 on: May 12, 2016, 12:01:49 PM »
Well Bob and John,
You know the thing is, and I may sound old-fashioned and/or might have sounded old-fashioned in my previous posts in this topic, that cost-cutting is King.
Why in the first place have western-european companies reflagged their ships, why did they put foreign crews on their ships.
Not because those crews were better or specifically worse performing. No, and you know, it's because of money.
Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that there are no good eastern asian officers out there. Because I know there are a lot of good asian officers out there. But you get what you pay for. And that's really the whole point.
And because of the cut-throat rates and the fierce competition a lot of companies don't want to pay, so then don't expect officers that have a drive to perform good.
Cheers,
Roy

Offline Phil English

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Re: SAFMARINE MERU ablaze following collision with NORTHERN JASPER
« Reply #31 on: May 12, 2016, 02:29:54 PM »
Of course it's down to money. How else would there be success, entrepreneurism and employment?

Unless of course you want the whole world to adopt the old Soviet style of state-run business. Look how well that turned out. No thanks.

Brgds
Phil

Offline Malim Sahib

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Re: SAFMARINE MERU ablaze following collision with NORTHERN JASPER
« Reply #32 on: May 12, 2016, 06:38:59 PM »
So having decent professional standards = Soviet style economy?
Then again that's probably how shipowners think, of which I've never met a poor one.

Offline MO Roy

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Re: SAFMARINE MERU ablaze following collision with NORTHERN JASPER
« Reply #33 on: May 12, 2016, 06:47:40 PM »
Phil,
You get what you pay for is in my opinion pure economics. I have no idea how you came up with the Soviet-union, or anything relating to that, regarding this topic.
I hope you are aware of the old adage in shipping: If you pay monkey you get monkey. And that's what's happening.
Once again there are good crews (from al nationalities) out there, but everything has it's price.
Cheers,
Roy
« Last Edit: May 12, 2016, 07:00:24 PM by MO Roy »

Offline Gerry Radt

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Re: SAFMARINE MERU ablaze following collision with NORTHERN JASPER
« Reply #34 on: May 13, 2016, 04:12:13 AM »
John,

Was merely an observation of whats happening around the world,and following this and other sites for many years.
Of course there are thousands of good sailors,lets hope the quantity of bad sailors is not as large!
And yes many more and larger ships sail the oceans then in my day.
And with all that has come an ever increasing need for sailors to be better educated.
The question remains:Are they?
Kids at school do all the work on computers and calculators,when last have you seen a kid whom is capable of adding and subtracting without a calculator?
That is my view,no disrespect to any sailor.
Just saying.
Gerry

Offline lappino

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Re: SAFMARINE MERU ablaze following collision with NORTHERN JASPER
« Reply #35 on: May 13, 2016, 06:24:34 AM »
Good sailors quietly keep doing they job well, while bad sailors make headline news...
I guess every one of us can mention some example about lowering training and  education standards, not only in seafaring. So, humans keep challenging the ever advancing technology...

Offline em777

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Re: SAFMARINE MERU ablaze following collision with NORTHERN JASPER
« Reply #36 on: May 13, 2016, 08:00:31 PM »
To be fair I think every person who has added to this thread each has a point which could be considered. Maybe it's time for the shipping industry to look at all angles rather than to continue down this path. Looking at other industries and their evolution may also be beneficial.

Technology of course is not a bad thing, but maybe it's not being utilised within the industry to full effect?
For example the company I work for has a different type of electronic chart system for almost every type of vessel. Each one has a different specification and some of which are so completely inaccurate that one would never trust such a system in certain navigational situations. Therefore with equipment like this, the only thing to do IS to look out of the window.

Whereas on with other systems I would cross reference with the electronic AIDS. This unfortunately means there is no standard.
I am also very interested in the aviation industry. Lots can be learnt here.
Regular simulator rides could be a steady way of continuing competence in particular circumstances. Those course of this nature I have been on were excellent. Putting one under pressure and strain and learning about yourself and how you react in a situation can be a steep curve.
TCAS (traffic collision avoidance system) is an automated response by the aircraft to the pilot in command. Warning them of aircraft nearby. A similar system which interprets rule of the road and perhaps provides an option could be useful. Yes this may take skills away, but for all those incidents that do happen like the one in this thread then maybe they could be avoided. I have no doubt that the OOW on the bridges of these two vessels knew the rules, but maybe assistance from a marine standard TCAS could have avoided an incident like this completely. A system like that may well have provided an alternative to the poor decision made.

Just a thought,

John

Offline Malim Sahib

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Re: SAFMARINE MERU ablaze following collision with NORTHERN JASPER
« Reply #37 on: May 13, 2016, 09:08:59 PM »
To be fair I think every person who has added to this thread each has a point which could be considered. Maybe it's time for the shipping industry to look at all angles rather than to continue down this path. Looking at other industries and their evolution may also be beneficial.

Technology of course is not a bad thing, but maybe it's not being utilised within the industry to full effect?
For example the company I work for has a different type of electronic chart system for almost every type of vessel. Each one has a different specification and some of which are so completely inaccurate that one would never trust such a system in certain navigational situations. Therefore with equipment like this, the only thing to do IS to look out of the window.

Whereas on with other systems I would cross reference with the electronic AIDS. This unfortunately means there is no standard.
I am also very interested in the aviation industry. Lots can be learnt here.
Regular simulator rides could be a steady way of continuing competence in particular circumstances. Those course of this nature I have been on were excellent. Putting one under pressure and strain and learning about yourself and how you react in a situation can be a steep curve.
TCAS (traffic collision avoidance system) is an automated response by the aircraft to the pilot in command. Warning them of aircraft nearby. A similar system which interprets rule of the road and perhaps provides an option could be useful. Yes this may take skills away, but for all those incidents that do happen like the one in this thread then maybe they could be avoided. I have no doubt that the OOW on the bridges of these two vessels knew the rules, but maybe assistance from a marine standard TCAS could have avoided an incident like this completely. A system like that may well have provided an alternative to the poor decision made.

Just a thought,

John

They obviously didn't know the rules, otherwise there would have been no collision. Introducing a marine version of TCAS or adding yet more checklists will only make things even worse, just as the introduction of AIS made collision avoidance by VHF a thousand times worse.
After all, giving an idiot on the bridge of a ship better equipment does not make him safer, it merely makes him more dangerous.

Let's remember that STCW has not brought everyone up to a decent standard, it has in fact brought everyone DOWN to the lowest common denominator.
Everyone seems to think the airline industry is the be all and end all of procedure, it is not. In many ways it's totally inapplicable to the marine world for a hundred different reasons.

The core problem today amongst nearly every nationality of young (and some not so young) officers is a lack of knowledge and experience beyond the absolute bare minimum required. Many do not even have that, all brought about by training schemes, colleges and cadetships which are not fit for purpose and are merely an exercise of putting bums on seats to comply as minimally as possible with STCW and things like the tonnage tax.

Unlike in the past where you had to grapple with very basic navigational equipment (if any), the navigational workload of the modern OOW is non existent and almost entirely revolves around ship dodging and following the accursed red line. Therefore, the overwhelming majority of collisions and groundings will simply not occur providing that the OOW possesses both adequate knowledge and (real) experience, plus a proper lookout is being kept.
Keeping a good lookout is the easy part, ideally have a rating on the bridge 24 hours a day solely dedicated to lookout duties. At the very least between sunset and sunrise and in all busy areas.
The knowledge and experience part can only be achieved by the following:

1) Return seatime and watchkeeping requirements for all certificates back to what they were pre STCW 78/95. In the case of cadets ensure seatime does actually have some value where the cadet is placed in a ship with individuals of the same nationality and ideally of their own company. End the farce that is cadet training groups.
2) Ensure that a greater depth and breadth of tuition at the nautical colleges is provided during a cadetship. Also ensure that subsequent senior certificates require real college time and classroom lessons, together with written AND oral exams. These should be properly constructed and externally invigilated - colleges setting and marking their own exams is nothing short of a joke.
3) Abandon pointless "all in one" cadetship schemes like (so called) Foundation Degree and Professional Diplomas, as they are not worth the paper they're written on and all they produce is seriously underqualified individuals who have a grossly unfair short cut to senior certification. That in itself is setting up serious problems for the future.

Offline em777

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Re: SAFMARINE MERU ablaze following collision with NORTHERN JASPER
« Reply #38 on: May 13, 2016, 09:59:03 PM »
Well how can it be proven if the OOW knew the rules?

By an oral exam he/she passed. Not much use now is it?

I meant an AID like TCAS and regular simulator sessions so as to improve the standard that is out there now. We can't turn back time and re-train these people from day one, but if we can build in a higher level of redundancy going forward then surely this would be safer?

I agree that many of the college courses and cattle farms of officer production lines are wholey inadequate. I should know I went to one! You have a mix of sub standard courses built on tonnage tax etc and young men and women who are maybe not adequate for the job. ( not all, some) 3 years later you get a sub standard officer with a sub standard education but a college and shipping company who are quids in. I agree, wrong motives=wrong outcome.

Unless the fundamentals of business change its going to take a mighty leap for necessary changes to take place.

John

Offline Malim Sahib

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Re: SAFMARINE MERU ablaze following collision with NORTHERN JASPER
« Reply #39 on: May 13, 2016, 10:08:18 PM »
Well how can it be proven if the OOW knew the rules?

By an oral exam he/she passed. Not much use now is it?

I meant an AID like TCAS and regular simulator sessions so as to improve the standard that is out there now. We can't turn back time and re-train these people from day one, but if we can build in a higher level of redundancy going forward then surely this would be safer?

I agree that many of the college courses and cattle farms of officer production lines are wholey inadequate. I should know I went to one! You have a mix of sub standard courses built on tonnage tax etc and young men and women who are maybe not adequate for the job. ( not all, some) 3 years later you get a sub standard officer with a sub standard education but a college and shipping company who are quids in. I agree, wrong motives=wrong outcome.

Unless the fundamentals of business change its going to take a mighty leap for necessary changes to take place.

John

If someone truly knows the rules inside out (word perfect) to start with and is examined on them constantly as a cadet both at sea and at college and then in Orals, then they stick with you for life. So they should, as they are absolutely fundamental and the overriding component of the job of any OOW.
You keep using that word aid. You should know as well as I do that any of the grand systems you refer (which don't exist) will never be used merely as an aid, they will be in fact be relied upon by the idiots out there. Accordingly I'm very resistant to anything that will take their eye off the ball even more.

Offline em777

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Re: SAFMARINE MERU ablaze following collision with NORTHERN JASPER
« Reply #40 on: May 13, 2016, 10:21:47 PM »
Well how can it be proven if the OOW knew the rules?

By an oral exam he/she passed. Not much use now is it?

I meant an AID like TCAS and regular simulator sessions so as to improve the standard that is out there now. We can't turn back time and re-train these people from day one, but if we can build in a higher level of redundancy going forward then surely this would be safer?

I agree that many of the college courses and cattle farms of officer production lines are wholey inadequate. I should know I went to one! You have a mix of sub standard courses built on tonnage tax etc and young men and women who are maybe not adequate for the job. ( not all, some) 3 years later you get a sub standard officer with a sub standard education but a college and shipping company who are quids in. I agree, wrong motives=wrong outcome.

Unless the fundamentals of business change its going to take a mighty leap for necessary changes to take place.

John

If someone truly knows the rules inside out (word perfect) to start with and is examined on them constantly as a cadet both at sea and at college and then in Orals, then they stick with you for life. So they should, as they are absolutely fundamental and the overriding component of the job of any OOW.
You keep using that word aid. You should know as well as I do that any of the grand systems you refer (which don't exist) will never be used merely as an aid, they will be in fact be relied upon by the idiots out there. Accordingly I'm very resistant to anything that will take their eye off the ball even more.

Again Malim I agree with you, (hopefully) most of us out there know the rules, inside out. But one thing this case as with many others have shown, is that people work towards their certificates pass them and then incidents happen. This shows that the knowledge that should be there isn't. Now that's either down to the individual or the education process that got them there. Tricky I know as the rules are the rules you either know and understand them or you don't. So the next question is, how do you ensure these officers do know the rules and continue to hold their knowledge? Like Malim says it should be second nature but in many cases it obviously isn't. There most certainly is an over reliance on navigation aids. Your eyeballs are the first tools you should use along with your ears. The rules of the road were not written with electronic gadgetry in mind.

Maybe it should be minimised,  but what is left should be there as a safety measure to support the OOW not as something that gives irrelevant information and makes 101 distracting noises?

Offline Robbie

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Re: SAFMARINE MERU ablaze following collision with NORTHERN JASPER
« Reply #41 on: May 13, 2016, 10:42:50 PM »
If someone truly knows the rules inside out (word perfect) to start with and is examined on them constantly as a cadet both at sea and at college and then in Orals, then they stick with you for life. So they should, as they are absolutely fundamental and the overriding component of the job of any OOW.

Malim, knowing the rules word for word doesn't mean a lot now days. The idea of them is ensure that when a situation develops the OOW will know what action to take. I have seen a lot of people who memorise the rules word for word but then then you put 2 toy boats in a situation on a desk they have no idea what to do but just spew out word for word the rules.

I think a lot of why this sort of thing happens is to do with the quality of training some officers get and also the experience they have as a cadet/AB. If they are lucky to get a CO or even any crew member who shows enthusiasm in teaching them it reflects on how they act/work when they are Officers.

Robbie

Offline DeepSeaDiver1000

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Re: SAFMARINE MERU ablaze following collision with NORTHERN JASPER
« Reply #42 on: May 14, 2016, 11:43:50 AM »
If they know them, forgot them or whatever. The bottom line is they did not follow them this time.

Here is a good article about it. Red to Red - Green to Green. The fact that Northern Jasper manuvered to port is concerning and may play a critical role in apportioning fault. I would think they were also manuvering around fishing boats in this high density fishing area at the time of the accident. Be safe out there.

http://maritime-executive.com/blog/nightmare-for-mariners-collision-at-sea



Offline Krispen Atkinson

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Re: SAFMARINE MERU ablaze following collision with NORTHERN JASPER
« Reply #43 on: May 14, 2016, 03:52:34 PM »
I made a comment 2 pages back on 10th May, but seems to be have been ignored whilst the argument of poor crewing etc. has carried on.

The AIS video has limitations, and does not give us a complete picture and therefore we can not draw conclusions on this alone. We only see the two 2 vessels in question, what it fails to show are other vessels which were in the area at the time, which could have contributed to the incident. What we can see is some strange manoeuvres by the Northern Jasper before the collision. This could suggest they were avoiding something - it could be that the crews were actually following the rule book to avoid another incident which then lead to this. We will not know for sure until we see a report of the accident.

I would also point out that there are now more ships afloat now, than there ever has been in the past, and with more congested seaways accidents are going to happen. Though, in terms of percentage of the fleet accidents have reduced - this can be attributed to better training and also modern technology. What we must do is make sure technology does not take over - something I fear has happened in this thread, as we look at just one part of the picture - the AIS plot!

Krispen







Offline Bob Scott

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Re: SAFMARINE MERU ablaze following collision with NORTHERN JASPER
« Reply #44 on: May 14, 2016, 04:54:57 PM »
I agree, Krispen. As I said before in this thread, there would be many more collisions if not for all those electronic gismos our sailor and ex-sailor friends keep complaining about.

 

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