ShipSpotting.com Forum

Shipspotters all over the world => Site related news, functions and modules => Topic started by: Bob Scott on March 17, 2018, 01:15:39 pm



Title: Copyright Policy Query
Post by: Bob Scott on March 17, 2018, 01:15:39 pm
Site Standards clearly say:
“If you own or hold prints, slides or negatives that have been purchased or acquired by other means but you are not certain of the copyright owner you must NOT upload to the website, photographs not taken or owned by the member must clearly state in the description the name of the person that owns the copyright and that the member has approval to upload them to this website. “
Judging by the number of old, unaccredited photos that are appearing these days, I am wondering if it has become admin policy to ignore that rule?


Title: Re: Copyright Policy Query
Post by: davidships on March 17, 2018, 02:00:03 pm
Not intentionally, Bob, and some members do get reminded (and remember for a while!).

At least one member was approved some years ago to continue in general without specific ID, due to the declared circumstances in which the photographs were obtained.

If you have specific images which are causing you concern, please PM me or send details to webmaster@shipspotting.com


Title: Re: Copyright Policy Query
Post by: Tony des Landes on March 18, 2018, 08:23:53 pm
I know copyright can be a contentious issue at times but I thought I'd share this little story.

Where I work at Napier Port, we posted a photo of a ship loading the first cargo of logs ever to leave Napier, taken in the mid 1950's. The photographer was a former employee who passed away quite some time ago and this photo was posted without permission but with acknowledgement to him

Both his daughter and son responded by saying how delighted they were to see their Father's work being used in such a away, and of course, both appreciated the fact they he was acknowledged in the post.

Strictly speaking, we probably should not have done this, but that was a case where family members perhaps recognised that it made their Father's work something that has now become a permanent historical record, rather than something kept hidden away in a box somewhere which probably would ultimately be destroyed.

It does concern me how much great material will probably never be seen because of concerns over copyright laws


Title: Re: Copyright Policy Query
Post by: DEREK SANDS on March 20, 2018, 09:11:54 am
Well said Tony


Title: Re: Copyright Policy Query
Post by: davidships on March 20, 2018, 09:46:02 am
Indeed.  The key point was that the photographer was acknowledged.  And no doubt if his heirs had wished to restrict use that would have been respected (leaving aside whether the copyright might have been held by the company if he took the photo as part of his job). 

Bob's concern was primarily about unattributed photos, because it is implicit in uploading photos here that the image is the member's own work, unless it states otherwise.


Title: Re: Copyright Policy Query
Post by: DEREK SANDS on March 20, 2018, 10:56:09 am
Yes fully agree with that David :)


Title: Re: Copyright Policy Query
Post by: miraflores on April 14, 2018, 05:35:39 am
I have decided to delete all my 6000 photos in the next days and leave the community.

http://www.shipspotting.com/gallery/photo.php?lid=2838899#comments

@ miraflores


Title: Re: Copyright Policy Query
Post by: DEREK SANDS on April 14, 2018, 06:39:20 am
Thats a great shame Juergen


Title: Re: Copyright Policy Query
Post by: Bob Scott on April 14, 2018, 08:32:40 am
I am not planning to quit - yet - but I am somewhat concerned about the apparent "laissez faire/anything goes" approach of the current admin team. This site was supposed to be about members' own photographs -not those trawled from miscellaneous sources and flea markets.
If the site standards are not to be adhered to, change them! Otherwise there is no point in having rules.


Title: Re: Copyright Policy Query
Post by: Brent on April 14, 2018, 09:19:27 am
Has somebody said something? I have been surprised at times to find the site does not have some I would have thought longstanding fleetmembers, and wonder about their absence. Is it because of site policies, we have already heard from Tony how family members are quite happy to see postings of their ancestors pics so are our rules onerous. Can't imagine that the FBI or Scotland Yard, even Fiji 5-0, going to raid us for posting pics that don't meet copyright, as afterall they are only being displayed, not sold for great profit.
The internet has devalued the once premium the majority of photoes have commanded yet they are still good enough to be posted for international appreciation through the likes of the shipspotting site.
The Russian postings are great, and from my perspective postings of old British ships are appreciated but we still have some to see that could be addressed in posting old photoes, am sure the original photographers who didn't want their work posted would have made provisions for them to remain hidden away.
I hope miraflores changes his mind and there is a satisfactory pathway for images of the ships of yesteryear to be included in the shipspotting community.
Cheers
Brent


Title: Re: Copyright Policy Query
Post by: Clyde Dickens on April 15, 2018, 10:11:32 am
Juergen. please do not leave the site.  It needs your skill in identifying unknown ships as well as your excellent photographs

Both the Webmasters are away this weekend.  I am sure they will wish to contact you

Clyde


Title: Re: Copyright Policy Query
Post by: davidships on April 15, 2018, 10:49:39 am
Back now - thanks Clyde.  Just to note for the moment that Jürgen and I have been in touch about this recently, and the issue is understood but has a complicated history.  Other colleagues have been in touch with me off-forum, and that it where we shall take it forward.


Title: Re: Copyright Policy Query
Post by: miraflores on April 15, 2018, 11:01:21 am
@Clyde, I have nothing against old, historic photos, but the copyright or explicit permission to upload must be clear.
Rgds. Juergen


Title: Re: Copyright Policy Query
Post by: Bob Scott on April 15, 2018, 11:57:50 am
@Jürgen: Exactly!


Title: Re: Copyright Policy Query
Post by: peter j. fitzpatrick on April 15, 2018, 03:56:25 pm
Jurgen , I would also like you not to leave the site , as your photos and also your input would be greatly missed
I’m sure the admins can come up with a solution to the copyright problems that you have raised
While it is good to see these older ship photos , I think that unless the photographer is known and also named then no photos should be posted without consent  from him or her
Kind regards
Peter j.fitzpatrick


Title: Re: Copyright Policy Query
Post by: Ken Smith on April 15, 2018, 04:45:44 pm



Jurgen,you have been an asset to the Website for many years with your helpful advice and research  so please reconsider your decision to remove your Album
Kind Regards
Ken


Title: Re: Copyright Policy Query
Post by: miraflores on April 15, 2018, 07:24:40 pm
@Ken,
I've sent you a PM


Title: Re: Copyright Policy Query
Post by: Pilot Frans on April 16, 2018, 08:22:03 am
I agree with Juergen, Policy is clear.
 
Why not to remove this picture? If we found pictures of us on other sides without permission also actions are taken. So please keep to policy as state by Davidships.

And for Juergen. I hope you will stay on SS.

regards
Frans



Title: Re: Copyright Policy Query
Post by: miraflores on April 16, 2018, 08:34:19 am
I remember what happened shortly after I became a member here in May 2006.
I had uploaded a birds view photo from a beautiful portuguese cargo ship, of course without copyright and permission.
The finnish moderator that time, (was it Pekka Laakso or Alexi Lindstroem ?), contacted me and advised me to delete the photo immediately, but I ignored. Then he contacted me again and gave me 1 hour to delete the photo, otherwise he would suspend my account. Such warning also should be given to Gena Anfimov.

But now I hope the present Admins will take necessary action, if not I go.
I have not uploaded all my photos I made withinh the last days, I will just wait and see.

Rgds. Juergen


Title: Re: Copyright Policy Query
Post by: pieter melissen on April 16, 2018, 09:24:19 am
From what I understood from the poster (and his comments to his picture of the whale catcher), copyright laws in the former Soviet Union were non-existent. (the picture was owned by the "people").
The main reason to adhere to copyright laws in my opinion is the possibility that the site can be sued for breaching these laws if photos are published without permission. No one would dare to publish any Fotoflite stuff. Given the situation in the USSR as described by the poster, the chances that the site will be sued in this case are next to zero. And if the photo in question would have to be deleted, than it is not unlikely that many other shots by the same poster would have to suffer the same fate. From the looks of it the commotion regarding this photograph has arisen because of the nature of the comments made and not specifically because of the copyright issue.

I would therefore suggest to let this sink in for a while before making any drastic decisions regarding both the deletion of the shot(s) or leaving the site.  

PS this is my own personal opinion.         


Title: Re: Copyright Policy Query
Post by: Tuomas Romu on April 16, 2018, 10:12:27 am
Given the situation in the USSR as described by the poster...

...is not correct, we should follow our standard policy on posting content by other photographers.

You can find discussion about the Soviet copyright laws and whether or not material is considered public domain in e.g. Wikimedia Commons (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:PD-Soviet#This_template_is_very_wrong).


Title: Re: Copyright Policy Query
Post by: miraflores on April 16, 2018, 10:20:52 am
Long, long dekades ago there was a professional photographer in Hamburg, his name was Gustav Boedecker with 100 000 or 200 000 or more photos from ships all over the world coming to Hamburg.
If you need a special ships photo, just ask Boedecker, he had a photo.
When he died in 2000 or so a bookchandler Hafenfuchs purchased all the photos including all rights from the children of Mr. Boedecker.
Many, many german websites, DDG Hansa, Chr. Biedekarken, Peter Hartung, Poseidon etc,etc. had photos from Boedecker on their webseites when Mr. Hafenfuchs started a trial against these website owners, and he won the trial because of mass copyright violation of his photos.

An extract from a forum, dated 2009 in german language, but I think Google can help to translate.
http://forum-schiff.de/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=1463&start=110

But one special sentence:

Von den 13 betroffenen Webmastern sind 3 oder 4 nachgeblieben, der Rest hat wegen geringen Beträgen gezahlt. Thomas Kraft und ich haben seit langen einen Rechtsawalt mit unseren Interessen beauftragt.


Translation; From the 13 involved webmaster 9 or 10 have paid the demands (many 1000 Euros)of Hafenfuchs, the other 3 or 4 have hired a lawyer.

Finally all the Hafenfuchs (Boedecker photos) have been removed from the websites, or the websites have been closed.
Rgds. Juergen


Title: Re: Copyright Policy Query
Post by: Gavin Rayfield on April 16, 2018, 10:49:49 am
Well said Pieter Melissen !


Title: Re: Copyright Policy Query
Post by: Pekka Laakso on April 16, 2018, 11:05:11 am
I remember what happened shortly after I became a member here in May 2006.
I had uploaded a birds view photo from a beautiful portuguese cargo ship, of course without copyright and permission.
The finnish moderator that time, (was it Pekka Laakso or Alexi Lindstroem ?), contacted me and advised me to delete the photo immediately, but I ignored. Then he contacted me again and gave me 1 hour to delete the photo, otherwise he would suspend my account. Such warning also should be given to Gena Anfimov.

But now I hope the present Admins will take necessary action, if not I go.
I have not uploaded all my photos I made withinh the last days, I will just wait and see.

Rgds. Juergen
Hi,

During my period in the admin team I never urged anyone to remove anything in a certain time period like an hour. In the beginning before the Site Standards policy were widely established remember we had a lot of conversations regarding deletions within the team and later with Webmasters Allan Mears, Derek Sands and Ken Smith. As far as I remember. On behalf of Aleksi Lindström I cannot state anything did he act the same way inside the admin team at that time. But you're correct the way you were given sounds very prompt action regarding a photo of which the uploader had neither the copyright nor permissions to use it.

Rgds,
Pekka


Title: Re: Copyright Policy Query
Post by: miraflores on April 16, 2018, 11:16:38 am
@Pekka, I remember this action very well and I have learned my lesson.
What I do not know exactly is the name of the moderator, but this is not so very important, isn't?
Rgds. Juergen


Title: Re: Copyright Policy Query
Post by: Pekka Laakso on April 16, 2018, 11:23:00 am
@Pekka, I remember this action very well and I have learned my lesson.
What I do not know exactly is the name of the moderator, but this is not so very important, isn't?
Rgds. Juergen
It's not of course.

Rgds/Gruß,
Pekka


Title: Re: Copyright Policy Query
Post by: davidships on April 16, 2018, 09:28:45 pm
Thank you all for maintaining pretty good "decorum" in this thread.  The matter is firmly in hand now and I hope to be able to confirm shortly that the issue has been resolved.  It would be better, I believe, if criticism - direct or implied - is not permitted to be personalised here in public forum.

I confirm that we will be applying the existing policy on copyright more comprehensively, with due regard to different circumstances, to all members.  If any of you are concerned that we may have missed something, the most helpful approach would be to email webmaster@shipspotting.com or send me a PM.

David


Title: Re: Copyright Policy Query
Post by: Sinisa Aljinovic on April 17, 2018, 08:23:34 am
Hi Juergen!
You already left another site and this would be too much.I know that there are too much rubbish here but your photos are top notch quality.I am also getting sick of some "quality" but it is hard to discuss about it.Please do not leave this site ! :-[


Title: Re: Copyright Policy Query
Post by: csaba on April 27, 2018, 07:42:31 pm
hey Jurgen, please keep posting. Love your photos from Kiel canal. They are those photos that one doesn't have to look who took them, just the style says who was it.
Looking forward to see more from Kiel...
Cheers, from Vancouver, from the shores of English bay anchorage :-)