ShipSpotting.com Forum

Shipspotters all over the world => Consultations and review of site standards => Topic started by: davidships on September 05, 2015, 12:57:53 pm



Title: Topic 2: Focus and exposure
Post by: davidships on September 05, 2015, 12:57:53 pm
The site standard currently reads:
Quote
Photos must be sharp and correctly exposed.
No silhouettes will be accepted

Can an acceptable sharpness be described?

At what size should sharpness be considered - gallery image, full screen or full image size?
Can “correct” exposure be described?

Would inclusion of examples of acceptable/non-acceptable images be helpful?

Please add your views on this topic below, before 5 October 2015.


Title: Re: Topic 2: Focus and exposure
Post by: lappino on September 05, 2015, 02:15:22 pm
Unsharp - meaning blurred ship's name from a distance when it should clearly be visible.

"Correctly exposed" - goes with the same category as "correct religion". Makes zero sense, remove it.


Title: Re: Topic 2: Focus and exposure
Post by: Dеnis on September 05, 2015, 03:12:05 pm
If a photo is within the acceptable resolution, in full size: if the ship occupies more than some 50% of the frame - name, railings, windows, masts, aerials should be clearly visible.


Title: Re: Topic 2: Focus and exposure
Post by: simonwp on September 05, 2015, 08:03:31 pm
Current standard for focus seems to be OK, remove correct exposure, seems to be applied subjectively by administrators anyway.


Title: Re: Topic 2: Focus and exposure
Post by: Captain Ted on September 05, 2015, 08:59:02 pm
Photos should be sharp at any time and/or distance.


Title: Re: Topic 2: Focus and exposure
Post by: Patrick Hill on September 05, 2015, 10:08:29 pm
What about scanned older photos? Not everyone has the ability to scan and produce a pin-sharp image - will there be some tolerance for scans?


Title: Re: Topic 2: Focus and exposure
Post by: Robbie on September 05, 2015, 11:03:20 pm
When it comes to sharpening I think there is too much sharpening. there are a few images that I feel are over sharpened. From trial and error I have found if someone uses the sharpening tool in say Picasa or iPhoto, etc anything over about 50% becomes pixelated. Every little detail is over sharp and unrealistic.
I think sharpening is a good thing but it should be the same quality as what you would see in real life not heavily happened and odd looking.

Regards Robbie


Title: Re: Topic 2: Focus and exposure
Post by: csaba on September 06, 2015, 04:58:28 am
If I would put it as a wallpaper on my computer it is a go  :)


Title: Re: Topic 2: Focus and exposure
Post by: Brent on September 06, 2015, 06:19:03 am
I would like to see some leniency for ships of yesteryear that have to be scanned off an average negative/slide, especially if it is the only image of the ship on site. Despite the standards it is still possible to post modern digital pretty ordinary shots, so we should be able to expand the library with views not of best quality.


Title: Re: Topic 2: Focus and exposure
Post by: DEREK SANDS on September 06, 2015, 10:51:05 am
There is already some tolerance for older images that are scanned, this does not need to change in my opinion.

 We must be sensible, the advances of digital photography are impossible to reproduce except from transparencies of exceptional quality.

Older images are very much admired on the site by a lot of the members.

best regards

Derek


Title: Re: Topic 2: Focus and exposure
Post by: Cornelia Klier on September 06, 2015, 03:29:15 pm
The way it is now, it is o.k.

Sharp means, if I can read ships name and see ships window and it is just as sharp as it is in real, too. Especially on letters you can see this very good.

Keeping site standards like they are now, is o.k.


Title: Re: Topic 2: Focus and exposure
Post by: Kyle Stubbs on September 06, 2015, 05:38:24 pm
I think adding examples for sharpness, especially in distant photos, might be useful. Perhaps for larger vessels, examples showing where deck gear and railings are and are not clear, and for smaller vessels, showing clear detail of small features such as nameboards and windows.

Kind Regards,
Kyle


Title: Re: Topic 2: Focus and exposure
Post by: Phil English on September 07, 2015, 12:53:46 pm
A lot of photos are removed under the sharpness rule because a full-size they are 'noisy'.  Basically, that means that the camera is struggling at low light and/or long distance and producing a poor image. At full screen, straight lines become distorted and smeary. Small-sensor pocket cameras/mobile phones and high-zoom bridge cameras are the main culprits. The larger sensor DSLRs do not struggle so much. I see a lot of people posting such images but if they were to reduce the pixel width to, say, 1600, the problem would be much reduced.

I think that the rule should be redefined to take this problem into account.

Brgds
Phil


Title: Re: Topic 2: Focus and exposure
Post by: Tuomas Romu on September 08, 2015, 09:52:06 am
As for "correct exposure", the photographs should not be clearly over- or underexposed (large white or black areas), and none of the color channels should be clearly "clipped".

Regarding noise, I agree with Phil. If the camera cannot produce a noise-free image at 1:1, the resolution should be reduced before uploading the photograph.


Title: Re: Topic 2: Focus and exposure
Post by: davidships on September 08, 2015, 11:31:21 am
An observation: There are two full screen versions: "fit screen" (the opening default) and "original size".  In some cases the original is smaller than full screen, so it is the site software that can add apparent lack of focus. For those, perhaps it is the original size should be considered. In other cases, the full screen can look fine, but the original size might be considered "too large" for it's content (yet often invaluable for identitying mystery vessels, for example). 


Title: Re: Topic 2: Focus and exposure
Post by: Glenn Towler on September 09, 2015, 10:48:52 am
I think if we look at imposing a critera on exposure we are opening up a huge nightmare for the admins, a lot of people no doubt just use the auto mode on their camera's, some just us a point and shoot camera and the computer onboard the camera might not produce a image that is not like the conditions at the time of the shot.  If the has a bit of focus issues but it is still clear especially scanned, low resolution images but the ship details can be made out, whats wrong with leaving it?  Obviously if a image is so clearly unsharp and blury that is different, but some of use adjust our shutter speeds and exposure for various reasons and i think to impose conditions on that is crazy when only the person who took the shot knows what the condition were like at the time


Title: Re: Topic 2: Focus and exposure
Post by: gwrdave on September 09, 2015, 09:08:42 pm
As far as old photos that are scanned don't forget what this site is about, Shipspotting, not ship photography.

Dave G


Title: Re: Topic 2: Focus and exposure
Post by: pieter melissen on September 15, 2015, 01:51:09 pm
As far as old photos that are scanned don't forget what this site is about, Shipspotting, not ship photography.

Dave G

Old photos are also of ships that were once spotted...I would oppose a rule that would state that photos have to uploaded within a certain (any) amount of time after they were taken.

Correct exposure for me is that I can adjust the picture to the exposure  and lighting levels that I fancy. I hardly come across images that I cannot work with, even the vague Vancouver B&W shots become jewels when you work on them a little. So I am in favour of deleting the word : "correct" in the standards.

Digital camera noise can be reduced by several programmes too, so I am not too worried about low quality images on those terms. As far as sharpnes is concerned, the distance between a photographer and a ship is seldom small enough to have problems with depth of field, so even the largest aperture will not result in the rear part of a ship becoming unsharp, but it could still be considered to introduce a rule that requires that all parts of the ship have more or less the same level of sharpness.  


Title: Re: Topic 2: Focus and exposure
Post by: simonwp on September 15, 2015, 06:25:51 pm
Dave G, I'm currently posting scanned photographs from over 30 years ago, but they were all taken by me, so I'm not sure what your point is.


Title: Re: Topic 2: Focus and exposure
Post by: gwrdave on September 16, 2015, 08:12:07 am
Hi Simon,

Photos, slides and negatives do deteriorate over time if not keep correctly,some of mine going back to the 1960s and in colour, my point was that they may not be up to the latest quality of digital images but are of interest to some members.

Dave G


Title: Re: Topic 2: Focus and exposure
Post by: gwrdave on September 16, 2015, 08:51:27 pm
Hi Pieter,
I entirely agree with you, I know you have seen some of my old slides and have worked on them for me and produced really good photos.
Dave G


Title: Re: Topic 2: Focus and exposure
Post by: jadran on September 26, 2015, 08:08:50 am

SHARPNESS

Definition should be clearly understood, and even more it is necessary to be clearly judged on a methodical manner (not only on basis of an individual judgement as up till today).
I propose to be implemented a scale of sharpness quality:
1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 8 - 9 - 10
"1"   =  outstanding bad quality
"5"   =  average quality
"10"  =  excellent/outstanding good quality
Should be accepted photos of sharpness quality "6" or better.

It happens quite often that an Admin deletes a photo of sharpness quality "7" or "8" (sometime even "9" in extreme cases !?? ) to our much great surprise and our even greater disapproval of such a decision & action.
Such an unjustified Admin's judgement, based on only an individual judgement and personal angle of opinion at that very moment, should not happen in any case (maybe an Admin doesn't have a "good day" that day !??).

Should be also well considered by the site Administration that this is not a Professional site with the highest/best professional products, but it is a Hobby site with amateur products which should be of reasonable good quality.

In conclusion:
Sharpness quality of at least "6" is to be acceptable !
Regards /Jadran

PS
If an Admin considers a photo for deletion with remark "Not sharp" he should obligatory, clearly & fully state e.g. Not sharp - sharpness quality 4





Title: Re: Topic 2: Focus and exposure
Post by: jadran on September 26, 2015, 08:49:18 am

[quote
At what size should sharpness be considered - gallery image, full screen or full image size?
[/quote]


My proposal:
At ORIGINAL SIZE  ( when opened at Original size !!! without further additional enlarging )

For clear explanation of the ORIGINAL SIZE:
Thumbnail size  >>  Main page size  >>  Full Screen size  >>  Original Size


Regards /Jadran




Title: Re: Topic 2: Focus and exposure
Post by: jadran on September 26, 2015, 09:28:48 am

HARD COPY PHOTOGRAPHS

Hard copy photographs (old ones) can basically never be in the same good quality/sharpness, due to various reasons, as a negative or slide.

Therefore, for a scan of a hard copy photograph, the poster should obligatory state in the photo Description box a Note:
Scanned from a hard copy photograph

Regards / Jadran



Title: Re: Topic 2: Focus and exposure
Post by: ventuari on September 26, 2015, 04:23:32 pm
Hi fellow members and administrators.

Well, some considerations about the fit screen - full screen - original size matter.

This is a big problem for me. As Im sure that you all noticed, in almost all my uploaded shots I remarked at the description box : " Better quality at Full screen "...

Why ?  Its Shipspotting software the one that choose wich its the size to be enlarged automatically. ?

When I upload a real cristal clear sharp shot, lets say for example, at just 1300 pix width, you have 5 different view sizes I think:

small, at the front page when you just upload.
small, at the sub pages.
medium, when you just click on the small one and get the view page whith the shot info.
Fit screen when you are loged and can open the shot to full screen-fit screen  ( your shot or in this case my shot, fit complete, not cropped, between the monitor left and right side )

This full screeen-fit screen its the one better for the size of my shots, but then if you click on ORIGINAL size, everything goes bananas ( totally out of focus, the shot multiply the sixe 2, 3 or close to 4 times, and of course out of focus ) and the viewers can think of a POS quality shot.

Why bananas ?... because my ORIGINAL size uploaded shot was 1300 pix width.

I dont get this, really. Its a software problem, configuration, my fault, my monitor screen size, or else.

Somebody from the administ. team may explain me why this happen...and if can be corrected...

I think that Original size means just exactly that : the real-original size of the shot that you uploaded. ( in this example just 1300 pix)

Full - Fit screen means that the software adapt your shot to be shown complete - not cropped  between the monitor screen borders...

Something its wrong, Im sure, but I need some help with this tech. stuff. ::)

Fixing this I would not post the..."Better quality at Full screen" anymore for sure. ;D

Well Mr. Administrator thanks in advance, and any tech. input, info, or help, welcome.
MBregards.
ventuari


An observation: There are two full screen versions: "fit screen" (the opening default) and "original size".  In some cases the original is smaller than full screen, so it is the site software that can add apparent lack of focus. For those, perhaps it is the original size should be considered. In other cases, the full screen can look fine, but the original size might be considered "too large" for it's content (yet often invaluable for identitying mystery vessels, for example). 


Title: Re: Topic 2: Focus and exposure
Post by: ventuari on September 26, 2015, 04:35:05 pm
Hi Jadran

Totally agree with you.

Thats what I was trying to explain in my previus post my friend.

MBregards from Canary islands.

ventuari



[quote
At what size should sharpness be considered - gallery image, full screen or full image size?


My proposal:
At ORIGINAL SIZE  ( when opened at Original size !!! without further additional enlarging )

For clear explanation of the ORIGINAL SIZE:
Thumbnail size  >>  Main page size  >>  Full Screen size  >>  Original Size


Regards /Jadran



[/quote]


Title: Re: Topic 2: Focus and exposure
Post by: DEREK SANDS on September 26, 2015, 06:12:17 pm
The question of the shipspotting software in relation to displaying photos will have to be answered by Henrik our site manager and software maintainer.
I must admit I am not aware of anyone on the admin team with the knowledge to answer Ventuari's questions



best regards

Derek


Title: Re: Topic 2: Focus and exposure
Post by: dirk septer on September 27, 2015, 05:17:30 pm
There is already some tolerance for older images that are scanned, this does not need to change in my opinion.

 We must be sensible, the advances of digital photography are impossible to reproduce except from transparencies of exceptional quality.

Older images are very much admired on the site by a lot of the members.

best regards

Derek

Older images are indeed most interesting. But if these were not taken by the actual member who posts them on Shipspotting (of course with the proper copy right) it is my opinion that they should be in a separate category.


Title: Re: Topic 2: Focus and exposure
Post by: Henrik Soderberg on September 28, 2015, 05:15:35 pm
Hi all,

Here comes an explanation.

There are the icon, small and middle size images on the site that are converted automatically.

The "original size" is as the uploader added it. It's kept by us to both give the most detailed image, but also to be able to generate new thumbnails (if needed).

When uploading, many photographers don't consider resizing, sharpening, contrast, saturation and similar filters which should be used to make a good photos.

The "fit screen" obviously does not look the same as it's hugely depending on screen size.

A 1300 pixels photo should look good in original size on most regular screen sizes of today. Can look bad in full screen if the screen resolution is larger in pixel size - like 1920+, 3840 or more... and if it's on a 40+ inch monitor/projector etc.

In my opinion the full-screen and original size it's so many factors affecting the image quality.

The middle size images (most commonly viewed) is 800 pixels in width (always shrinked from at least 1024px, which increases sharpness), and if that one is looking bad - for sure all the other larger versions will look a lot worse and likely completely unacceptable.

Regards,
Henrik


Title: Re: Topic 2: Focus and exposure
Post by: ventuari on October 01, 2015, 03:41:44 pm
Hi Henrik.

Thanks for your tech. explanations.

MBregards.
ventuari

Hi all,

Here comes an explanation.

There are the icon, small and middle size images on the site that are converted automatically.

The "original size" is as the uploader added it. It's kept by us to both give the most detailed image, but also to be able to generate new thumbnails (if needed).

When uploading, many photographers don't consider resizing, sharpening, contrast, saturation and similar filters which should be used to make a good photos.

The "fit screen" obviously does not look the same as it's hugely depending on screen size.

A 1300 pixels photo should look good in original size on most regular screen sizes of today. Can look bad in full screen if the screen resolution is larger in pixel size - like 1920+, 3840 or more... and if it's on a 40+ inch monitor/projector etc.

In my opinion the full-screen and original size it's so many factors affecting the image quality.

The middle size images (most commonly viewed) is 800 pixels in width (always shrinked from at least 1024px, which increases sharpness), and if that one is looking bad - for sure all the other larger versions will look a lot worse and likely completely unacceptable.

Regards,
Henrik



Title: Re: Topic 2: Focus and exposure
Post by: ventuari on October 01, 2015, 03:45:10 pm
Hi Jadran.

Totally agree with you. And worst if the hard copy its in grainy photo paper...

MBregards.
ventuari


HARD COPY PHOTOGRAPHS

Hard copy photographs (old ones) can basically never be in the same good quality/sharpness, due to various reasons, as a negative or slide.

Therefore, for a scan of a hard copy photograph, the poster should obligatory state in the photo Description box a Note:
Scanned from a hard copy photograph

Regards / Jadran




Title: Re: Topic 2: Focus and exposure
Post by: ventuari on October 01, 2015, 04:00:15 pm
Hi Dirk

Totally agree with your post. Not only (as you posted...)..." that they should be in a separate category " but I would add...in a different box in the main page. Why dont use the "Random Photo of the day" box ( for example ) for third party shots, collections, or photos not taken by the actual photographer ?.
Its just one idea...where to place those third party shots...

MBregards.
ventuari

There is already some tolerance for older images that are scanned, this does not need to change in my opinion.

 We must be sensible, the advances of digital photography are impossible to reproduce except from transparencies of exceptional quality.

Older images are very much admired on the site by a lot of the members.

best regards

Derek

Older images are indeed most interesting. But if these were not taken by the actual member who posts them on Shipspotting (of course with the proper copy right) it is my opinion that they should be in a separate category.