ShipSpotting.com Forum

Shipspotters all over the world => Site related news, functions and modules => Topic started by: dirk septer on July 23, 2015, 03:18:55 PM

Title: Will not contribute any further photographs
Post by: dirk septer on July 23, 2015, 03:18:55 PM
Your deletion of my photograph of Seaspan Survivor self-dumping barge is the final straw.

Though this photo drew hundreds of views and several comments of information and praise from several members, Admin deleted it.

Having posted 5,200+ photographs over the years, obviously they are not appreciated by Admin.

I will not bother spending time going though my literally hundreds of photos taken from such locations such as northern Russia, China, southeast Asia, etc. and posting these on Shipspotting.

Dirk Septer

 
Title: Re: Will not contribute any further photographs
Post by: Tuomas Romu on July 23, 2015, 05:55:13 PM
One of the photographs I posted was removed by the photo admin even though I really liked it. I posted another, which was more in line with the site policy, instead.

Big freaking deal.
Title: Re: Will not contribute any further photographs
Post by: pieter melissen on July 23, 2015, 06:54:24 PM
I simply don't get it: Have all your 5200+ pictures been deleted or just a couple? 
Title: Re: Will not contribute any further photographs
Post by: DEREK SANDS on July 23, 2015, 07:36:08 PM
A number of Dirk's photos have been deleted as have a number of mine.

The choice on this site is a stark one. We either have a deletions policy and accept there will always be controversy, moans etc. Or we don't have a deletions policy at all and anything goes.

best regards
Derek

Title: Re: Will not contribute any further photographs
Post by: Cornelia Klier on July 23, 2015, 08:23:24 PM
A pity you are leaving, Dirk.

I have had a few of my photos deleted. It is easy to first get angry about this. It is not easy, to judge own photos in an objective way. I have started doing it like this, some years now:

After first shock and anger, I look at the photos again and read the reason of deletion and I must say, that yesss the admins who deleted - had a good reason to do this! My photos were not according to policy here. Of course admin can get it wrong too, in that case, you should contact webmaster and since there is always 2 people viewing a photo, in that case I am very positive, a decision can be revised or you can also get advice about enhancing a photo.

A pity you are leaving as I said, but one should not try to stop travellers, as we say in Germany.

Greetings,

Cornelia
Title: Re: Will not contribute any further photographs
Post by: dirk septer on July 23, 2015, 09:20:18 PM
@ Cornelia:

Most of us, at one time or another, have photos deleted; and usually for valid reasons.

I have a strong suspicion though that my photographs are being watched extra carefully after I complained about photographs posted by two webmasters, that though these did not meet the standards were not deleted. They have been deleted now, only after I pointed this out.

My photograph of the self-dumping log barge Seaspan Survivor was so sharp that davidships
actually managed to read her name on the stern and thus identified it correctly for me.

Several others, including MattyBoy commented positively on my photo, which eventually was watched by several hundred members and made the "most popular photo" list as number two or three.

If it was judged by two admins, as you suggest, at least one of them should have seen that it was sharp, or at least not out of focus.

By deleting this photo valuable contributions and comments by other members were lost as well.

It would be nice that in "borderline cases," the photographer could be given the chance to replace the to be deleted photo with an enhanced version of it.

I always spend a lot of time to add relevant information and links with the photos I post,
time I might as well spend on other pursuits if the quality of my photos is considered unacceptable or not meeting the standards.

Shipspotting has its standards, but so do I.
Title: Re: Will not contribute any further photographs
Post by: Daniel B on July 24, 2015, 01:54:23 AM
To: Dirk,

As an introduction: I was a licensed marine engineer working on coastal tankers in Canada.
 
The photo you named here, I am certain, caused many followers of this glorious site to start searching the web for more informations on the working of those self loading and self dumping marvels of Canadian naval architecture. This working I already knew. But it sure was a pleasure to search through Shipspotting files to finds all sorts of photos related to the subject...

I love this website very much but one day, The adm. for bulkers, removed my photo of such a vessel sailing with the glory of the Laurentian Fall folliage as a background. So and in reaction, I removed all my limited number of photos from the site...
Title: Re: Will not contribute any further photographs
Post by: lappino on July 24, 2015, 02:13:51 AM
I suggest a new category to be added: "Borderline cases". :)

I think it would limit the amount of anger (righteous or not) about the possible deletions, and at the same time would generate some additional traffic for the site which, let's face it, is the bottom line.

Rgds

Vlad
Title: Re: Will not contribute any further photographs
Post by: Robbie on July 24, 2015, 03:53:10 AM
I think with the new method of deleting images that do not comply with the sites rules is a good method. Dirk if your image got deleted there must have been something about it that 2 different people agreed did not comply. It doesn't matter if your images attracts a thousand hits within 24 hours or if it got 1 hit, if it does not comply with the rules it should be deleted.
Because you have over 5000 images on the site does not mean you should get treated any different to someone who has uploaded a small amount.
This site is made up of people from all over the world and most of us are adults. to imply that some of the people who help keep the site running are specifically targeting you because you made an earlier comment is ridiculous and childish.
I think you could have done this in a better way. contacting the admin who decided the image was not appropriate and a webmaster would have been a better route than making a repetitive forum about your images being removed.
At the end of the day any images that are uploaded to the site need to comply with the rules. It doesn't matter if you think its the best image you've ever taken it still needs to comply.
Title: Re: Will not contribute any further photographs
Post by: dirk septer on July 24, 2015, 04:03:06 AM
@ Vlad:

New category "Border Cases" should and is not necessary;
all that is required is a little leeway/benefit of the doubt.

btw: my deleted photo certainly was/is not a border case anyway:
it certainly was/is not out of focus.

What can solve all these border cases as you call them, or photos
considered for deletion, is giving the photographer a chance to enhance it
or replace it with a better one.

This will allow the retention of all entered data, views count and
comments by other members. I always spend a lot of time researching
and entering additional information and links to more photos or info.
This will all be lost when a photo is deleted.

I could have posted the same deleted photo again, but this is against the
regulations.
I once replaced a deleted photo with a better one of that same vessel taken
a few minutes later. I subsequently was threatened with losing my membership
status for doing so. Admin informed me that three webmasters had looked at
the new photo and all decided to disallow it (again). Had all three taken
the time to have a closer look at the second photo, they would have noticed
not only a totally different angle, but also a totally different background!

Three of them looked at it, and none of them noticed the differences, but
they certainly were quick and unanimous in their deletion and threat of
kicking me out.
Title: Re: Will not contribute any further photographs
Post by: Tony des Landes on July 24, 2015, 04:36:07 AM
I would like to see Forums regarding photo deletions removed altogether with the instruction that any issues regarding deletions be taken up with the Web Masters directly.

Some may say this is undemocratic, but with democracy comes the responsibility of accepting a majority decision in good grace, even though you may not agree with it.

The hysteria created by some members simply because they had a photo deleted is bewildering and the knee jerk reaction by some in deleting all their photos really selfishly punishes the innocent members the most, as they are then denied access to a source of photos which in most cases are an asset to the site.

These types of forums in that past have without exception been detrimental to the site, and even though members tick the tick pox to say they have read and understood the site standards, still continue to try and flout the system.

It must be remembered that it was through complaints from members that these standards evolved. I remember seeing a photo of a ship posted on this site made of lego blocks, another of a building because the roof was shaped like the hull of a boat and so on. Without rules this is the sort of rubbish that would end up on this site.

Regards

Tony
Title: Re: Will not contribute any further photographs
Post by: pieter melissen on July 24, 2015, 07:32:00 AM
My suggestion to the previous webmaster has been to create a category : considered for deletion that is only visible for admins. Once a shot has been spotted that would fall in that category, the admin concerned will move it to that category, immediately notifying the reasons for that action to the poster. Once the shot has been viewed by more than one admin a decision can be made regarding the future of the shot.

This procedure has a number of advantages:

1. Other members will not have the opportunity to start commenting on a shot : considered for deletion, which can save a lot of unnecessary disucssion and comments
2. The member who posted the photo can get a fair chance of arguing why he/she thinks that the shot was postable within the site standards
3. It will remove the impression of subjectivity that some people seem to have regarding the deletion policy.

I received no comment regarding this suggestion so far.   
Title: Re: Will not contribute any further photographs
Post by: Ken Smith on July 24, 2015, 08:10:10 AM

Nothing new here, now that there is a New Management team in place hopefully they will have more success with this problem that I did, it just needs a Little Pressure on the IT side to set it up.

http://forum.shipspotting.com/index.php/topic,11906.0.html

Regards
Ken
Title: Re: Will not contribute any further photographs
Post by: MattB on July 24, 2015, 10:59:00 AM
Hi Dirk,

I'm going to miss your contributions. You've produced some thought-provoking images on here, from far-flung destinations I know I'll never visit and quirky if not plain & simple, peculiar vessels and for that, I thank you for sharing them with me.


Please reconsider.


Very best regards Dirk,


Title: Re: Will not contribute any further photographs
Post by: Glenn Towler on July 24, 2015, 01:19:21 PM
I never thought I would see the day the fingers being pointed and accusations made and I am disappointed that you have done this but respect your decision to do so.

I too have had photos deleted from this site, some that I have felt comply with the site guidelines, I have at times been so pissed off I have stopped posting, I have on a number of times felt like just walking away from the site.

You are not alone in this boat and I urge you to just take a step back and settle down, yes some if my shots once I have had a 2nd look have agreed with the decision to delete it, but there have also been times where I have felt that maybe the admin is being a bit too picky perhaps.

I too have been a admin and it is a tough role to undertake, there was a lot of images I referred for deletion I really regreted and there was some I turned a blind eye to as I am sure many of the admins have.   I urge you to talk to the webmasters about your accusations and raise your concerns with them.  Please don't walk away from the site because if there is truth in your accusations you are letting those people win and get away with it.


Glenn
Title: Re: Will not contribute any further photographs
Post by: simonwp on July 24, 2015, 02:24:28 PM
I think some of the problems arise because the admins appear to use standard phrases when deleting photographs. If the reason for deletion doesn't exactly fit with the phrase used it can cause the poster to feel unjustly done by.

For example I had a photograph deleted a couple of days ago for "incorrect exposure - unable to see detail". In fact the exposure was fine, and, as for the detail, you could see what the captain had had for breakfast. But it was dark, because it was taken in bad weather. I accepted it because there were better shots already on the site, but would have felt better if I'd had a proper reason given, for example " shot very dark - better on site".

especially in borderline cases, a fuller explanation for the reasons for deletion to the poster, would ease some of the issues. No all - some people will get upset regardless, but it would be better.
Title: Re: Will not contribute any further photographs
Post by: SSIPaul on July 24, 2015, 05:15:30 PM
Hello Everyone
IM a Master at Seaspan,the company that owns the survivor.This type of barge is specific to this country,this coast and work.The seaspan forester was the largest self loading self dumping log barge in the world.its now out of service due to its size,and a extensive amount of money to repair.these barges are going to be out of service including the survivor soon.last year seaspan log barge division after paying all expenses made $250,000.00 the first repair this year to a log barge used all of that.This is a piece of equipment that is specialized and expensive to operate,has periods of time during the year that don't work,due to weather.Too Much snow-cant cut trees down,too hot- cutting trees may cause fires.the seaspan survivor used to be 1 of only 2 in the world self load self dump self propelled log barges previously owned by kingcome navigation.This type of equipment like others in the world are disappearing,administration think back about something,someone you knew and wonder what happened to that ship,tug,barge or that person.These barges are going to disappear,its a part of west coast Canadian history that needs to be archived.Shipspotting is the forum for this. My 2 cents worth,for what its worth.
Paul
Title: Re: Will not contribute any further photographs
Post by: Luko P. on July 24, 2015, 07:45:43 PM
None likes when her/his photos are removed from the site, me too. I did not like when admins removed some of my night-photos, saying these were photoshoped (what was absolutely not true), but I still like the site (well, without my night photos as in the meatime I've removed even acceptable ones). So folks, enjoy taking photos, enjoy browsing this yet wonderful site and let others enjoy too. And let admins do their job best they can (or apply for admin yourself).
Title: Re: Will not contribute any further photographs
Post by: Derek Lilley on July 24, 2015, 07:53:38 PM
Hi Everyone,

While I appreciate that the deletion of photos is an emotive subject I do not think that we should lose sight of the fact that there are other pictures of the vessel on the site.

There are on site 10 other clear pictures of the vessel that can be seen.(Found in subcategories Barges and Tugs with Tow under IMO 7343683)

Of these 10 pictures 5 have been taken by Dirk which clearly show the vessel empty, the vessel full and the vessel unloading, so by deleting this one photo of the vessel in an empty condition, has not as inferred by Paul depleted the archive of this vessel.

We are as Admins fully aware our responsibilities with the rarer types of vessels and also to any vessel in actual fact.

Kind regards
Derek
Title: Re: Will not contribute any further photographs
Post by: Balticventure on July 25, 2015, 06:03:05 AM
I have had photo's removed, just the other day I had taken off, it's something you get used to. I was a little annoyed when it first happened, but then I see the standard that some of the photo's reach,. What you have to bear in mind, is the photo's that you have taken have a WOW factor to us who want to get where you are. and you will remove the enjoyment and puzzlement of how in hell did he take such a good shot as that, which then spurs others on. I do hope you dont stop posting, but will respect what ever you do.
best regards

Balticventure
Title: Re: Will not contribute any further photographs
Post by: dirk septer on July 25, 2015, 03:02:08 PM
Thanks Paul,
You seem to be the only person besides me who appreciates these technical wonders,
unique to our West Coast. Sorry, one more: MattyBoy as well.
Shipspotting Admin considers 10 pictures of this vessel enough and seems to be more
interested in showing literally hundreds and hundreds of pics of the same (to me)
boring cruise ships. For example, they allowed one member to post seven shots taken
in a row of a cruise ship of which there were already several hundreds of photos of
that same vessel posted.
The deleted photo showed a totally different angle and some nice typical west coast
background. Of all the hundreds of members who viewed the shot before it was deleted,
none has come forward yet here to state that it was out of focus or hard to see the
details. daviships actually identified it by reading the vessel's name on her stern.
Dirk
Title: Re: Will not contribute any further photographs
Post by: simonwp on July 25, 2015, 07:49:34 PM
You raise an interesting point, Dirk. If a photograph has attracted a number of favourable comments and a large number of views, it should indicate to admins that it's a photograph of interest to members in general, i.e. is something that members want to see on this site, and therefore should be kept. After all the site is for the benefit of members.....isn't it????

Having said that I've noticed that once a photograph has had a comment added, the number of views rises significantly. I guess members use the comments on the home page as a link to photographs.
Title: Re: Will not contribute any further photographs
Post by: pieter melissen on July 26, 2015, 07:37:41 AM

Having said that I've noticed that once a photograph has had a comment added, the number of views rises significantly. I guess members use the comments on the home page as a link to photographs.

I think we have had this discussion before. Yesterday I posted three shots of product tankers, all built 1982, of one vessel no picture at all was on the site, the second one had shots under different names and the third one only had some shots after she had exploded in Spain. I added a comment to the latter ship, and no comments were made (by me or others) to the other two ships. The shot with the comment got twice the amount of hits of the other two. It goes a little besides the topic currently under discussion, but some months ago I made the suggestion that one or two lines from the "description" section of the photograph should be made visible directly next to the thumbnail. It gives the poster a way to explain why he posted this shot and why it is interesting. It will certainly help people in deciding whether to open the thumbnail or not and it may also help the admins in their deletion considerations (if any). I suppose if this something like that would have been possible for Dirk's shot we might not have have had this discussion.
Title: Re: Will not contribute any further photographs
Post by: simonwp on July 26, 2015, 09:52:22 AM
Here's a constructive suggestion as to how Dirk's photograph should have been handled. It should have not been deleted. However there should have been a friendly PM to Dirk from the Admin telling him that although his photograph did not meet site standards because of XXXX it is being retained because of the amount of interest. Dirk could have been reminded of the standard and told in a friendly way that in future the standards would be more rigorously applied and similar shots would be deleted.

A comment on the photograph itself by the Admin along similar lines could also be added.

A while ago that is exactly how Ken Smith handled a photograph of mine of a poor shot of a vessel not already on the site. He put a comment on the photograph stating it did not meet site standards because of XXXX but was being retained as it was of interest.

Simple. All parties happy. admin had made his point in a friendly way, and I was happy because photo retained, but was aware that similar shot might well not be, so could not complain if they were deleted.
Title: Re: Will not contribute any further photographs
Post by: Tomas on July 26, 2015, 10:18:39 AM
If i may say my perhaps useless meaning, i would say as i have said before, IF there shall be moderators, they have to follow the same line.
HAVE TO.
Otherwise, if you realize your picture aint good/correct enough for this site, post it here:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/161371183916725/ or other groups on facebook that aint that hard on the rules.

That is my suggestion.

The rules for posting on this site is in my eyes rather picture perfect.

That was my femti kroner

 ;D
Title: Re: Will not contribute any further photographs
Post by: B.Clark on July 26, 2015, 10:33:48 AM
[quote author=Tomas
Title: Re: Will not contribute any further photographs
Post by: dirk septer on July 27, 2015, 03:38:46 AM
@ M.K.:

Thanks for your generous offer to enhance my deleted photograph of the self-dumping
log barge Seaspan Survivor.
Being an old-school photographer I'd rather not Photoshop or Photoscape my pics.

Since according to the rules I am not allowed to repost the same picture twice and
I have decided not to post any more pictures on Shipspotting, I have to decline your offer.

I have posted 5,000+ on this site, not to collect a large score of "Views" rather to share
my west coast shipping pictures and those of my travels. I really don't care who looks at
my photos; rather give a chance to those who are interested in my work.

I have made a number of positive suggestions to make this a more user friendly and higher
quality web site, but have not much hope anything will change.
Till then I will just step back and continue to shoot pictures just for my own enjoyment.

I shoot an average of 40-50 pics a day and only post the ones that meet the guidelines and
possibly may interest other members.

As a final parting I'll post a selection of vessel I have taken pics of today:

Wallis Futuna-registered cruise ship "L'Austral";
1944 built ex US Army FS-289 (sister ship to ill-fated Pueblo, captured by North Korea
in 1968: still going strong as "Sea Bird";
classic motor yacht "Thea Foss";
46-m motor yacht "Elisa"


Title: Re: Will not contribute any further photographs
Post by: dirk septer on July 27, 2015, 03:42:52 AM
@ M.K.:

Thanks for your generous offer to enhance my deleted photograph of the self-dumping
log barge Seaspan Survivor.
Being an old-school photographer I'd rather not Photoshop or Photoscape my pics.

Since according to the rules I am not allowed to repost the same picture twice and
I have decided not to post any more pictures on Shipspotting, I have to decline your offer.

I have posted 5,000+ on this site, not to collect a large score of "Views" rather to share
my west coast shipping pictures and those of my travels. I really don't care who looks at
my photos; rather give a chance to those who are interested in my work.

I have made a number of positive suggestions to make this a more user friendly and higher
quality web site, but have not much hope anything will change.
Till then I will just step back and continue to shoot pictures just for my own enjoyment.

I shoot an average of 40-50 pics a day and only post the ones that meet the guidelines and
possibly may interest other members.

As a final parting I'll post a selection of vessels I have taken pics of today:

Wallis Futuna-registered cruise ship "L'Austral";
1944 built ex US Army FS-289 (sister ship to ill-fated Pueblo, captured by North Korea
in 1968: still going strong as "Sea Bird";
classic motor yacht "Thea Foss";
46-m motor yacht "Elisa"



Title: Re: Will not contribute any further photographs
Post by: Tony des Landes on July 27, 2015, 06:07:00 AM
Below are the rules for posting ship photos on MarineTraffic.com. Is this site really that different in wanting to keep to a standard and maintain a certain amount of pride in what is posted. As someone else mentioned, if photos do not meet the standards here, what's so difficult about posting on other sites where they do meet the rules?

Size
Title: Re: Will not contribute any further photographs
Post by: simonwp on July 27, 2015, 06:33:57 AM
Tony,

There is nothing wrong with the rules. They are perfectly acceptable. It is how they enforced by Admins that appears to be the problem. There appears to me to be two related problems.

The issues seem to arise when a poster thinks they have complied with the rules, only to have their photograph deleted. It is then compounded by the way in which they are informed of the deletion. The deletion e-mails can seem abrupt, dismissive, and rude. the use of standard phrases in these e-mails may well help admins but the often only confuse the poster, especially when the phrases does not exactly describe the reason for deletion. I have suggested above that a more user friendly approach to informing a poster of a deletion may help soften this. I would like admins to at least consider this approach, and, if they consider it is not appropriate to change their approach, explain why.

Sometimes it is not what you say, but they way that you say it, that causes the problem.

Then there is the issue of interest. There should be a bit of discretion around photographs which have generated a lot of interest, even if they do not strictly comply with the rules. I realise that this is subjective, and not easy to manage.

There is an English saying: Rules are for the guidance of wise men, and the obedience of fools.
Title: Re: Will not contribute any further photographs
Post by: Paul Finnigan on July 27, 2015, 06:47:06 AM
Below are the rules for posting ship photos on MarineTraffic.com.


while I like Marinetraffic for what its main purpose is to track ships,its photos leave a lot to be desired, so much for the rules.
Title: Re: Will not contribute any further photographs
Post by: Tony des Landes on July 27, 2015, 07:07:15 AM
Below are the rules for posting ship photos on MarineTraffic.com.


while I like Marinetraffic for what its main purpose is to track ships,its photos leave a lot to be desired, so much for the rules.

Interesting comment as I have used quite a few photos from MarineTraffic
Title: Re: Will not contribute any further photographs
Post by: DEREK SANDS on July 27, 2015, 08:15:59 AM
"There is nothing wrong with the rules. They are perfectly acceptable. It is how they enforced by Admins that appears to be the problem. There appears to me to be two related problems.

The issues seem to arise when a poster thinks they have complied with the rules, only to have their photograph deleted. It is then compounded by the way in which they are informed of the deletion. The deletion e-mails can seem abrupt, dismissive, and rude. the use of standard phrases in these e-mails may well help admins but the often only confuse the poster, especially when the phrases does not exactly describe the reason for deletion. I have suggested above that a more user friendly approach to informing a poster of a deletion may help soften this. I would like admins to at least consider this approach, and, if they consider it is not appropriate to change their approach, explain why.

Sometimes it is not what you say, but they way that you say it, that causes the problem.

Then there is the issue of interest. There should be a bit of discretion around photographs which have generated a lot of interest, even if they do not strictly comply with the rules. I realise that this is subjective, and not easy to manage.

There is an English saying: Rules are for the guidance of wise men, and the obedience of fools.""

Hi Simon,

You suggest a more user friendly approach to deletions. Yes we do use standard phrases in deletion emails, these were introduced some time ago when the number of photos for deletion each day had reached epic proportions. However although we still use them there is an option for the Webmaster doing the deletion to send a personal message, this is done often. We do try to help and have sent examples to many members regarding rotations etc. to help them re-post a photo. I don't know of any other site that does this. At present I am engaged with several posters over material and they are getting a pre-warning and chance to discuss with me or another Webmaster the proposed deletion.

I know Dirk had many discussions with Ken Smith when he was Webmaster. Dirk's photo that has been the catalyst for this thread was treated with delicacy as we agreed not to delete it whilst it was highly visible in the top three due to the number of comments it had received. The reason for deletion was due to distance it was not in focus, Dirk will dispute that, but two Webmaster's agreed it was out of focus so it was deleted. We do I believe operate a good system with at the very least two pairs of eyes looking at photos placed in the category "considered" for deletion. If we don't agree it is initialed and returned to category.

A lot of Websites operate a screening policy where the photo is looked at before the uploading process can be completed. They are therefore deleted at source by just one pair of eyes looking at it, no discussion, no come back its just not uploaded to the site.
Ours is more friendly to say the least, but does not satisfy some. What can we do about it?

Well we have commissioned a review of the site standards to make them simpler for uploader and admins alike. There will be a chance for any member to make a suggestion or comment in a dedicated forum. This will be led by a newly appointed admin who has volunteered to oversee the process. I would like to say however that personally I would not be in favour of a watering down of the standards we have to accommodate photos that would not normally be accepted on the site. Most other sites are tightening their rules we should not be going the other way.

Best regards

Derek
Title: Re: Will not contribute any further photographs
Post by: pieter melissen on July 27, 2015, 08:52:11 AM
Quote from Derek's post above: "A lot of Websites operate a screening policy where the photo is looked at before the uploading process can be completed. They are therefore deleted at source by just one pair of eyes looking at it, no discussion, no come back its just not uploaded to the site.
Ours is more friendly to say the least, but does not satisfy some. What can we do about it?"

The essential point is the number of pair of eyes looking at a shot. I agree that one pair is not enough, but several pairs should be sufficient. What we have now is that the deletion category is still visible to everybody, so we get literally hundreds of pairs of eyes that all have an opinion, not necessarily corresponding to that of the people who have te decide about the fate of a shot.
And to answer the last question from the quote: Move the "considered for deletion" shots to a hidden category, only visibly to photo admins. If accepted the shot can be replaced in the correct category, if deleted, no one, except the poster will know about it.
Title: Re: Will not contribute any further photographs
Post by: DEREK SANDS on July 27, 2015, 09:00:41 AM
Hi Pieter,

The category is not visible to non-admins. But we cannot stop a disaffected member highlighting an individual photo to make it visible. The previous Webmaster had this category hidden. I know when I was ordinary member I could not access it.

best regards
Derek
Title: Re: Will not contribute any further photographs
Post by: pieter melissen on July 27, 2015, 09:05:22 AM
But Derek, how many times have I seen a photo with category : "Considered for deletion" (and I have to admit that I saved a couple of those shots before they would disappear.) Just the fact that this consideration is visible for a while generates comments and discussion about the deletion policies all the time.
Title: Re: Will not contribute any further photographs
Post by: DEREK SANDS on July 27, 2015, 09:13:39 AM
Hi Pieter,

The only way to stop it being visible then would be to delete it without notice, and doing away with the category entirely?
Of course another way is to introduce a screening at upload point, the photo would not make it onto the site.

Its only a minority of people making a fuss about deletions and even Dirk has now begun uploading again despite all this in the thread that he would not. Changes are afoot in the
site standards to make them simpler,hopefully this will make a difference. However some members do not accept deletions of any kind.

best regards
Derek
Title: Re: Will not contribute any further photographs
Post by: simonwp on July 27, 2015, 09:28:28 AM
Thanks for your comprehensive response, Derek. You ask, What can be done? Firstly restrict the use of standard phrases when advising a poster of a deletion, except, perhaps, in very obvious cases, such as horizon not straight. They often do not address the specific issue. I'm sure I'm not the only one who gets frustrated when I contact any organization in general and then receive a response in corporate-speak standard phrases that doesn't address the issue that I raised in the first place. I see this as no different. This is especially the case when delivering news that a poster doesn't want to hear, namely that their photograph has been deleted. The use of standard phrases in communications delivering negative news should always be avoided, as they imply a lack of thought and feeling.

If standard phases are used they should be reviewed regularly to make sure that they are still appropriate. The wording should be more conciliatory. Something along the lines of "We're sorry that we've been unable to accept this photograph because of xxxxx. A couple of Admins have looked at it, and agreed, that unfortunately on this occasion it has to be deleted. However we hope you will continue to post and look forward to further contributions". More words I agree, but not quite so dismissive.

You shouldn't benchmark yourselves against other websites in this respect, you should only benchmark yourselves against the responses of members of this website (on any topic, not just deletions). The site only functions if it is giving members what they want.

Just to be clear, I think this website functions very well, but, like everything, there are always area's for improvement. In the past members suggestions for improvements have often been met with a lack of engagement, and sometimes downright rudeness and aggression. I see that this is changing now, and that those running the site are more prepared to discuss openly and constructively, even if we don't always agree.

For the record, I didn't think Dirks photograph was out of focus either. Because the decision could only have been borderline, and due to the amount of interest shown, I think it should have been retained, with, as I mentioned in an earlier post, a suitable comment added.

Thanks again, Derek, for a constructive response.
Title: Re: Will not contribute any further photographs
Post by: pieter melissen on July 27, 2015, 09:29:35 AM
Derek, good to see Dirk coming back on his initial decision.

What I am arguing for though is that the category "considered for deletion" simply should not be visible. IMHO that does not mean that once a shot gets moved to that category, it has been deleted, but it has found a temporary (hidden/hiding) place there, awaiting a final decision after several pairs of eyes had their say about it. If a shot has been apoproved it will return to the site, and people will not know it went for a bit more scrutineering. So as soon as a photo mod will mark a ship as "C for D", it will automatically move out of sight, avoiding all sorts of discussions. This action though should also be followed up with a PM to the poster, explaining what is going on, and for instance asking to put the horizon level etc etc. Deletions should be discrete and not result in unnessacary antoganisms.

This may require some software amendments, but I am sure it can be done.  
Title: Re: Will not contribute any further photographs
Post by: DEREK SANDS on July 27, 2015, 09:42:00 AM
Hi Pieter,

The category is not visible but the photo is, so a comment on it and will lead to it.
I will ask Henrik if the photo can be hidden as you say software issues are evident.
I am sure Ken tried to get this sorted when he was Webmaster, the fact it has not been leads me to think although its possible it may cause errors? I don't know without speaking to Henrik which I will do.

I agree deletions should be discrete but some will not accept them no matter is said or done.

best regards

Derek

 
Title: Re: Will not contribute any further photographs
Post by: pieter melissen on July 27, 2015, 09:45:37 AM
Hi Pieter,

The category is not visible but the photo is, so a comment on it and will lead to it.
I will ask Henrik if the photo can be hidden as you say software issues are evident.
I am sure Ken tried to get this sorted when he was Webmaster, the fact it has not been leads me to think although its possible it may cause errors? I don't know without speaking to Henrik which I will do.

I agree deletions should be discrete but some will not accept them no matter is said or done.

best regards

Derek

 

Thanks Derek, hopefully that will help. I am sure people concerned may not always be happy with a decision, but at least the whole site community does not need to watch the proceedings and also, if that should be applicable, the poster will not feel ashamed to others to see his picture being exposed as being C for D.
Title: Re: Will not contribute any further photographs
Post by: dirk septer on July 27, 2015, 01:53:18 PM
@ Derek and Pieter:

No, I did not change my decision; if you read my last post:
I posted the pics of those four vessels I shot on Sunday as
a cross section of my photography "as a final parting";

Though I could have taken these same pics from the down town
area of Campbell River, I always try to head out of town to
get a more scenic backdrop.

I will not contribute further till I see some positive changes on
Shipspotting,
especially in the Vessel Identification/Technical Data/Additional
Info department: Not only full of incorrect data and missing info,
but also so very amateurish looking in the upper and lower case and
spacing; Does not look very professional.
And don't blame this on the source where you imported it from;
just don't import garbage; and if you do, at least correct it.

Also your basic "search" function is lacking and useless; If, for
example, I try to search the vessel L'Austral I posted pics of
yesterday, it does not come up at all.

Dirk

Title: Re: Will not contribute any further photographs
Post by: Dеnis on July 27, 2015, 02:16:00 PM
so your basic "search" function is lacking and useless; If, for
example, I try to search the vessel L'Austral I posted pics of
yesterday, it does not come up at all.

For that case you use http://www.shipspotting.com/gallery/advanced-search.php, input Austral only & select "Anywhere (slow)".  Might select additional options too.
Title: Re: Will not contribute any further photographs
Post by: simonwp on July 27, 2015, 02:27:43 PM
Dirk, I've tried to be supportive regarding your photo deletion because I did think it was a bit unfair. However, equally unfair are your comments above. You know the reasons why some of the functions are not as everyone would like at the moment, Derek has replied fully and openly previously. You also know that work is going on to improve matters. However it may well take time. This site is not a professional site with limitless resources, most work is done in peoples spare time, and with limited resources, certainly financial resources.

This site is a hobby site, which is why I get concerned about how deletions are handled, but because it is a hobby site and not a professional site, I do not expect everything to be perfect all the time. Indeed, taking your example of L'Austral, it can be difficult to find on other sites, because some have it with a gap after the comma, it is not an exact science. The English spelling of Russian vessels, for example, can cause all sorts if problems.

Even professional sites such as Equasis and Fairplay get vessel details wrong at times. If you are looking for perfection I suspect you are likely to be disappointed where ever you look.

The layout can be a bit messy, but it's a bit extreme not to post because of it, I'm sure it will be tidied up in time, but it's probably a low priority compared with getting a replacement source of information now that GrossTonnage has closed.

The site in improving but it's evolution not revolution. I think you are expecting too much too soon.
Title: Re: Will not contribute any further photographs
Post by: dirk septer on July 27, 2015, 02:54:50 PM
@ simonwp;

I only pointed out some points that need improvement:
a simple item such as a "gap after a comma" should be
easy to fix by some IT person.

I think it wouldn't take any time to fix the lower/upper
case and spacing when importing data from elsewhere; matter
of seconds really and would look so much better.

It would be nice if members could get access and fix the
problems and fill in such items as current owner if this
is blank there for the photos they post.

Don't have the web masters access to this part of the page
to make corrections and additions?

Dirk
Title: Re: Will not contribute any further photographs
Post by: dirk septer on July 27, 2015, 03:03:13 PM
To the member (for now I will not mention your name) who sent me the "Good Riddance"
message and calls my photos "amateurish" at least be man enough and share your views
with all other members here:

Quote:

"If that's your attitude, good riddance. Find somewhere else to post your amateurish
photos....
Do us a favour and don't hang around too long."

Well, don't worry... I certainly won't.

Dirk
Title: Re: Will not contribute any further photographs
Post by: echobow on July 27, 2015, 03:52:18 PM
I think there is no need to stage a mudslinging after what has been up to know a constructive exchange talk between members, photo admins and webmasters. Some members around here take up a lot of space to explain their personal point of view towards things which dissatisfy them either in the way deletions are handled or how this site appears in general. I think that's in general the main purpose of site related topics in this forum.

However, there is, as I said before, no need to post unfair remarks concerning the way this Website is run by the new Webmaster squad, since from the way they contribute to this discussion, it seems - at least for me - that there are some real intentions to simplify and to enhance Shipspotting. In this point, I go with Simonwp who noted that this site is not a professional one and therefore only benefits from commitment and not so much from financial resources.

Let's stay cool and try not make pcecipitate decisions and to keep a comfortable atmosphere within the forum discussions.

Cheers, David
Title: Re: Will not contribute any further photographs
Post by: simonwp on July 27, 2015, 04:00:34 PM
Dirk, you did indeed point out that there area's that require improvement, however not everything is as quick a fix as you think, unless you know differently. If so, you might be the man to implement the fix.

The idea of member's adding information etc is an interesting one, and worthy of further exploration. You would have to be careful of getting like Wikipedia where information is uncontrolled, but with the right safeguards it could work. There are members who don't post photographs, but who might be able to add data, and this could be a way of involving them.

The person who sent you the abusive PM was right out of order. You have as much right to your opinions as anyone else, and, while you put them forcefully, you were not abusive. there was a case a while ago when an admin posted publicly on much the same lines, and I pointed out then it was out of order.

All I'm saying to you is don't expect too much too quickly, and certainly don't expect perfection, but still enjoy and contribute to the site.
Title: Re: Will not contribute any further photographs
Post by: DEREK SANDS on July 27, 2015, 04:08:49 PM
Hi Dirk,

The simple answer to your question about access is.

No we cannot manually alter imported data from outside source.
Members can place data in the comment box just the same as admins can.
Admins can correct names and IMO's and place them in correct category.I have recently asked for and got some admins who will be looking after information correction.
Members can of course contribute as very many do already sending corrections for us to enact.
That is a way where control of information can be done to ensure it is accurate.

There are plans to upgrade several processes of course and there is much to do on the site.
But as Simon pointed out earlier the admin team is entirely made up of volunteers who dedicate as much time as they can to the site. There is one IT man employed by the owner to cover all technical needs. But he is looking after other sites to or he would I expect cost far more than the resources of this site could support.

best regards
Derek
Title: Re: Will not contribute any further photographs
Post by: jadran on July 27, 2015, 06:07:39 PM


I see that every day now, within the recent time, the number of 'Guests' and 'Users' and  'Most online Today' is continuously rising.

That's good, good and good ....... for the Website and for all of us 'lovers' of Shipspotting.com.


The general interest towards the website is nowadays certainly rising !!!


Title: Re: Will not contribute any further photographs
Post by: Tomas on July 27, 2015, 10:02:17 PM
If you have a picture that dont suit shipspotting.com, post it on facebook, there are many groups with rules that aint so strict.
Until the rules on shipspotting.com get altered, i dont see whats the problem following the rules.
http://www.shipspotting.com/support/faq.php?category=Site%20standards%20for%20all%20photos

I dont post this to be some wiseguy or expert, cause i certainly aint, rather the opposite. I post this because its nice to have a place to enjoy interesting and nice photos without having to feel ashamed of the eternal bickering and naging about this and that, this is something I am tired of.

I hope this site can regain some of its past cozyness.

I repeat, not posting this to be wise. Just for love of ship-photos.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Global-ship-photography/1432618817040609

Title: Re: Will not contribute any further photographs
Post by: Robbie on July 27, 2015, 11:26:47 PM
At the end of the day Dirk, you are just whinging about what you don't like about this site and nick picking but is not offering any help in volunteering to help get the site back on track.
If you are not happy with the site or certain bits of it either step up and contact a webmaster to offer some assistance or send them an email or PM to highlight what parts of the website could do with improving but starting more forums is not the way to do this. By making another forum about how unhappy you are with parts of the site or that your photo was removed you are being childish. The rules around images that are uploaded are clear and simple if you don't want to follow them then you risk getting your image removed. it doesn't matter who comments on it or if someone adds extra information about the history of the vessel it needs to conform with the sites rules.
There is a new admin team here now and things seem to be getting planned out so the site can move in a positive direction. this sort of stuff doesn't happen over night and we need to be patient. Derek is keeping us updated with how it is all going and always seems open to ideas on how to make this site even better.
Title: Re: Will not contribute any further photographs
Post by: dirk septer on July 28, 2015, 12:28:10 AM
@ Robbie:

Your condescending remarks really aren't helpful; why throw more fuel on the fire?

Did you check with the webmasters whether I did offer my help or not to improve this
web site before you start accusing me? Obviously not!

Earlier today, a fellow member already called my 5,200+ photos on Shipspotting
"amateurish" and asked "to do him a favour not to hang around too long."

We are all trying to make Shipspotting a better and higher quality web site, so why keep pointing fingers?

I am certainly willing to do my part to make positive changes happen to make Shipspotting
the best site with good quality photos, but it should also be attractive and not contain
wrong or missing data and information.

Amongst all our members there certainly should be some with IT savvy that with help of
others can make things happen.

So slinging more mud certainly is not helpful!