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Shipspotters all over the world => Shipping News and information => Topic started by: stantheman on August 19, 2012, 03:23:47 pm



Title: MSC Flaminia
Post by: stantheman on August 19, 2012, 03:23:47 pm
What's the latest on the MSC Flaminia? Haven't seen or heard anything for a few days. Is she still afloat and burning? ???


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: ChasB46 on August 19, 2012, 05:02:32 pm
MSC Flaminia ..report of 16th Aug from "Post & Courier" .. Smoke was still coming from one of the Flaminia’s cargo holds ... according to the vessel’s German owner, Reederei NSB. The 984-foot ship was holding a position 400 nautical miles west of the English Channel, and its owner has so far been unable to obtain permission to tow the ship to a port. MSC Flaminia, list has been reduced from 11 to 2.5 degrees by pumping water from cargo hold to ballast tanks. Ship stable and now safe to enter emergency port but none forthcoming. Weather deteriorating.
Meanwhile, Reederei NSB declared "general average", a maritime provision that requires the owners of cargo aboard the ship to pay a proportionate share of all the costs related to cargo damage, ship damage and salvage operations.


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: brimar on August 19, 2012, 05:03:56 pm
Hi Stantheman,
               Yep still going around in circles & under tow in the Atlantic . .fire is now out .
    You can get the full Chronological Reports and daily positions if you go to www.odin.tc/
                             Regards,
                             Brian 


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: allgramps on August 19, 2012, 05:45:27 pm
Been wondering what was on it for a while, that could be the reason no port will touch it.


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: Tuomas Romu on August 19, 2012, 06:00:47 pm
I can't help but notice that the commentary at odin.tc seems to be rather biased. :D


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: stantheman on August 19, 2012, 07:17:46 pm
Thanks for the update and info!! ;D


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: kasco on August 20, 2012, 11:34:16 am
Been wondering what was on it for a while, that could be the reason no port will touch it.
It would seem that there is missing information. WHY?


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: Tuomas Romu on August 21, 2012, 05:41:36 am
NSB is holding a press conference today regarding MSC Flaminia. Apparently they got a permission to enter the German waters.


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: Robert Smith on August 22, 2012, 05:49:35 pm
Understand she'll eventually be towed to Cuxhaven.
Would like to see pictures of her arrival there.

Rgds,
Rob.


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: Peter S. aus N on August 23, 2012, 07:28:35 pm
the german media expect that the Flaminia will be brought to the new Jade Port in Wilhelmshaven, this is the deepest port in Germany. This Port will go official in service on 21th of september 2012. Here on the NSB website is the other information:
in German http://www.reederei-nsb.de/site_de/index.php?node_id=2369
in English http://www.reederei-nsb.de/site_en/index.php?node_id=2339
greetings
Xylad Peter


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: brimar on August 24, 2012, 06:56:48 am
The convoy seems to be meeting up south of Land End with the French specialist rescue and decontamination vessel 'Argonaute' imo 9269518 and the 'Carlo Magno' rejoining once again from Falmouth . . This I presume is where the specialised inspection will take place before allowing the MSC Flaminia to proceed through the English Channel to the North Sea and her destination in Germany.


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: Tuomas Romu on August 24, 2012, 07:16:40 am
In the meantime, odin.tc continues its excellent and unbiased coverage on the incident (http://www.odin.tc/2012/mscflaminiaen.asp) with questions like "Why the crew left apparently seaworthy vessel without, as the following events demonstrated, any visible threat to crew and the vessel?" and "Why the crew was restricted in contacts, especially with media, after rescue?" Although I agree that we should dig deeper when it comes to British etc. authorities preventing the vessel from entering a sheltered harbour and perhaps (mis)declaring dangerous goods carried in the containers, conspiracy theory crap like that and especially questioning the actions of the crew, of which two died in the incident, make the whole blog smell like a big steaming smoking pile of... err... ship.


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: stantheman on August 24, 2012, 02:12:29 pm
I wonder if we will ever find out what was/is in those containers on this ship. There has to be a reason why the crew abandoned the ship and why it took so long to negotiate a safe port for the ship. Will be very interesting to see what is released to the "Public". ;D
.


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: Tuomas Romu on August 24, 2012, 02:39:29 pm
There has to be a reason why the crew abandoned the ship...

I heard there was a fire.

;)


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: stantheman on August 24, 2012, 07:08:38 pm
Yes there was/is a fire on board. That is a good reason to abandon a ship when the ship is in danger of sinking or of being completely burned up with nowhere to go. But this ship has stayed afloat for a long time and has been towed around the ocean for weeks. Hasn't sunk yet, may even be salvaged and put back in service. So, why did everybody get off right away? Ship wasn't sinking! Maybe, just maybe there was another reason that made that fire so bad that they abandoned when they did.
 :-\


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: Peter S. aus N on August 24, 2012, 08:42:18 pm
Dear stantheman,
which experience do you have in the shipindustrie? are you a master of a vessel of min 5.000 Teu, or at least of a yacht? or do you have only a car driving license  or at least of a tank?
I think there was a master with large experience on board, he was live on the scene, he was not drunken and clear in the mind and you doubt on him?. There was a little fire which costs already 2 lives and an explosion and no one knew if there would be a second which destroy the ship only you knew that all is not so dangerous.It is easy to take the responsibilty from your living room some day after. Do you know what is in the containers-no one knows only you and the sender.
Respect!


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: Jens Boldt on August 24, 2012, 09:13:53 pm
German TV news reported tonight that some of MSC Flaminia's containers are containing toxic, acrid and flammable liquids.

MSC Flaminia now is supposed to be towed to a place some 22 km off Helgoland. There experts will look for sources of fire which might still be active. Furthermore they will check if the fire fighting water aboard is intoxicated etc...

After that (as Peter posted earlier) MSC Flaminia will be towed to Jade-Weser port at Wilhelmshaven.

Cheers

Jens


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: stantheman on August 25, 2012, 12:32:34 am
Peter, don't get me wrong. I'm not doubting the Captain or his judgement. Just asking a question. Sure he did the right thing by getting the crew off. All I'm saying is that there seems to be some strange things happening with this ship. I mean a German flagged ship being towed around the North Atlantic for how long, almost a month?
There has to be an underlying reason is all I'm saying.
And bye the way, no I'm not currently in the Seafaring trade but have been and have a Father (deceased) and 6 uncles (deceased) who made their living on the North Atlantic. Out of a family of 7 brothers, my Father's family, 5 of the 7 died either in or on salt water. :'(


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: Ian Horsfall on August 25, 2012, 02:16:01 am
Peter S, Relax "Take a Pill" I have just returned home from  the English Pub  in my 1996 Civic with 2/3 tank of Gas, and I have had my fill of Bud Light,that makes me qualified to talk about any thing Maritime.I dont need no Certificates I read between the lines.
Being an armchair quaterback,
This Captain did not abandon his vsl on the spur of the Moment,with an engine room allledgedly fully working, he had probably made this voyage many times, knowing that these containers had contents that could combust any time and they did . Two possible more seamen
lost there lives may be not from the fire but from the fumes,he was using his Judgement to save the rest of the crew.
 I am sure the salvage Tugs did not send ill equipped personnel on to this ship without testing the air quality first.Lets all hope that this  sad story comes to a  successfull conclusion and no further lives are lost.
Now for one more BUD


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: Captain Ted on August 25, 2012, 10:54:49 am
stantheman

the underlying thing,,very easy
TOTAL INcOMPETENCE OF AUTHORITIES IN eERY RESPECT,, plus a whole bunch of stupidity on top of it from shore side.  and may be I can tell you a little about it because I sail since 28 years as capt.
Just now,,2 month ago I left the Rio la Plata,,we had to stop engine and check something
we had anchorage abeam montevideo, pilot just off,  and 0.5 nm distance to drop anchor ,,check and repair/keep going
Harbour control denied the request, instead we were direted 22 nm to the east for another anchorage. We made,it but don,t ask how,, I would say 80% od final disasters (Erika and the other famous one off the spanish coast which was towed around until it broke apart !!) caused the disaster after shore authortities denied them help !!!!!!!
 


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: kasco on August 25, 2012, 12:12:12 pm
Captain Ted

The IMO and ship underwriters have identified the problem with the transport of dangerous goods. The failure of the shipper to properly declare what is loaded in their shipping containers, which leads to wrong stowage of these containers onboard the vessel, has resulted in the lost of many vessels in the last few years. This incident would seem to reinforce the concern of the IMO.

Why is it that none of the numerous regulatory bodies are paying attention to these concerns?




Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: Kelvin Davies on August 26, 2012, 01:31:31 pm
I don't know if anybody noticed but MSC Flaminia's AIS is still working and it is showing up on Marine Traffic approximately 40 miles south of Falmouth.
There are 2 tugs leading; Anglian Sovereign and Fairmount Expedition. Carlo Magno appears to be bringing up the rear, showing Offshore Falmouth as a destination.
Kelvin


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: Captain Ted on August 26, 2012, 03:22:38 pm
Kasco

very easy

to load a vessel,, special a container ship according to regulation, containers would hve to be opened and inspected before loading,,try that with 2000 of them for a big ship !!!
In other words it,s a cost matter,, and hoping that shippers load the container as per regs. Unfortunately a lot of them take short cuts and declare wrong or less weights. It is a big concern. I remember when I loaded a 2500 TEU ship in 2006 in R-dam,,the draft survey showed that the weight of the containers (cargo) was 800 mt off the decalred !!!
Option,,discharge and re-weight,,,,result: new capt comes if done so !!


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: B.Clark on August 26, 2012, 04:30:34 pm
Carlo Magno has been in and out of Falmouth a couple of times whilst this incident has been playing out (unfortunately my photo's have been taken from the wrong side of the jetty and are not upto the site's standard for uploading)


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: Fred Vloo on August 26, 2012, 11:21:42 pm
Does anyone know why Carlo Magno, Anglian Earl and Fairmount Expedition are heading south-west again?
After inspection today, it also seems that she is carrying a large amount of Nitromethane.


Cheers Fred


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: Fred Vloo on August 27, 2012, 12:14:31 am
Does anyone know why Carlo Magno, Anglian Earl and Fairmount Expedition are heading south-west again?
After inspection today, it also seems that she is carrying a large amount of Nitromethane.

Update: It seems they are riding out a storm.


Cheers Fred


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: Kelvin Davies on August 27, 2012, 04:22:40 am
It seems they all turned back at 18:00 and this morning are still headed south west.
And they could be heading for a new problem.
On a converging course is Odyssey Explorer, towing a cable.
At the moment, they are about 10 miles apart.
Kelvin


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: brimar on August 27, 2012, 10:28:12 am
   
Fred.

All daily details of whats happening with the 'MSC Flaminia' Salvage Operation are available on 'MARITIME BULLETIN'

      Has the story got into the Dutch Press/Media? . .as very little has appeared on the Uk Media as yet,especially down here in the SW Region which borders the English Channel which of course we all still have bad memories of the 'MSC Napoli' 
                             
                                Cheer Brian


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: Kelvin Davies on August 27, 2012, 12:01:13 pm
Hmm,
I used to be a regular reader of the Maritime Bulletin but since reading the MSC Flaminia pages today, I am a little troubled.
At one point, the author claims there is no fire near to the superstructure. The photos in the same report show differently, with fire damage reaching one row of containers before the superstructure.
The same article at one point refers to fatalities among the crew and throughout the July updates tells why the crew were right to abandon the ship. Then, on August 15th, he states as a "fact" that the crew abandoned the vessel without any visible real danger to them or the vessel.
The article in various places demands to know why the vessel is meandering around in circles in the Atlantic. Closer examination of the article show however, that the German authorities want to put a team of specialists on board the vessel to make an inspection/evaluation and mentions that they were delayed because of bad weather (August 25th).
A check on the weather in that area shows there are 20 to 27 knot southerly winds blowing at the moment. I am not a mariner but I am also not sure I would want to try to drag a disabled vessel the size of this one on to what, at Falmouth, would amount to a lee shore.
I think the reports are rather prone to histrionics and seem more focussed on the fate of the cargo on board, rather than the ship or the crew.
Kelvin


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: Tuomas Romu on August 27, 2012, 12:59:33 pm
As I have pointed out in my previous messages, to me the coverage at Maritime Bulletin seems to be rather biased and the author hell-bent to find some kind of conspiracy or cover-up operation.

If I understood correctly, the crew abandoned the ship after trying to extinguish the fire by themselves. In my opinion, a fire that the crew can not put out by themselves is a good enough reason abandon ship, especially when four persons have already been injured and the ship was carrying two passengers.


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: brimar on August 27, 2012, 01:10:56 pm
Hi Kelvin,
           I hasten to add to my last post that I also find much of the content of Maritime Bulletine reports are written in a sort of 'Tongue in Cheek' way.
                   cheers,
                    Brian


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: brimar on August 27, 2012, 08:59:55 pm
Today 27th Aug 2012 at 1624 The MCA have published a press release updating the situation regarding the MSC Flaminia. It can be viewed on their web site . . www.dft.gov.uk/mca  under 'Publications'


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: kasco on August 28, 2012, 01:24:12 am
Kasco

very easy

to load a vessel,, special a container ship according to regulation, containers would hve to be opened and inspected before loading,,try that with 2000 of them for a big ship !!!
In other words it,s a cost matter,, and hoping that shippers load the container as per regs. Unfortunately a lot of them take short cuts and declare wrong or less weights. It is a big concern. I remember when I loaded a 2500 TEU ship in 2006 in R-dam,,the draft survey showed that the weight of the containers (cargo) was 800 mt off the decalred !!!
Option,,discharge and re-weight,,,,result: new capt comes if done so !!
These were the exact points that were raised at this meeting, lax safety procedures due to cost concerns. The main recommendations that came out of this conference were:
1. Each cargo unit be weighed before acceptance for transport.
2. A percentage of these cargo units be inspected before loading=15%
The underwriters made the case that the loss of one of these large vessels cost hundred of millions of dollars. The two recommendations would add very little to the cost of shipping a cargo unit.




Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: Fred Vloo on August 28, 2012, 07:26:57 am
Today 27th Aug 2012 at 1624 The MCA have published a press release updating the situation regarding the MSC Flaminia. It can be viewed on their web site . . www.dft.gov.uk/mca  under 'Publications'


Cannot find it. Could you be more specific or publish here?


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: Timsen on August 28, 2012, 07:49:45 am
http://www.dft.gov.uk/mca/mcga07-home/newsandpublications/press-releases.htm?id=6FFEBFD539348E12&m=8&y=2012


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: Kelvin Davies on August 28, 2012, 08:41:31 am
It may all be academic by the time you read this. At 08:40 GMT the convoy is in the English Channel approximately 15 miles east of the Lizard. The wind in the area has now reduced to around 15 knots, presumably making life easier for all involved.
Kelvin


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: Fred Vloo on August 28, 2012, 10:47:04 am
http://www.dft.gov.uk/mca/mcga07-home/newsandpublications/press-releases.htm?id=6FFEBFD539348E12&m=8&y=2012


Thanks.


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: Kelvin Davies on September 01, 2012, 12:35:07 pm
Well, progress at last!
According to the BBC, the inspection has concluded that the ship is safe to be towed to Germany and the tow will begin tomorrow (Sunday):
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-19448577
Meanwhile, Maritime Bulletin has published what is claimed to be part of the cargo manifest.
Conspiracy theories or an axe to grind? I don't know which but there it is:
http://www.odin.tc/news/read.asp?articleID=1260
Kelvin


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: Tuomas Romu on September 01, 2012, 07:24:40 pm
It's not very suprising that a large container ship is carrying hazardous industrial chemicals in some of the containers. What next? Someone realizes that chemical tankers are carrying similar chemicals in large quantities...


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: Robert J Smith on September 02, 2012, 02:03:46 pm
Why is it that over the past few weeks, the attending tugs have been visible, on and off, on Marinetraffic but I have seen no sign of MSC Flaminia. Now that she is under tow to Germany she is now visible on AIS. Has someone turned it on?

At the moment all four are in the English Channel south of the Lizard.

Regards

Bob


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: Kelvin Davies on September 02, 2012, 02:46:34 pm
Bob,
MSC Flaminia was visible via AIS over the last week or so but it was intermittent. Usually when she was on the edge of the usable range. See my post on the previous page (August 26th).
Kelvin


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: Robert J Smith on September 02, 2012, 02:57:37 pm
Thanks Kelvin. I saw your post and wondered if this was the case but never caught sight of her myself. The tugs, Carlo Magno & Anglian Sovereign must have kept being in & out of range.

Cheers

Bob


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: B.Clark on September 03, 2012, 08:14:30 am
she's on the move now, presently NW of the Channel Islands


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: PHa on September 06, 2012, 07:25:11 am
Hi all,
The CENTRAL COMMAND FOR MARITIME EMERGENCIES GERMANY (in german: HAVARIEKOMMANDO) reports periodical i.e. as follows:

http://www.havariekommando.de/aktuelles/anlagen/PM_FLaminia_9_eng__2_.pdf

Hope this may assist.
Best regards
Peter


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: brimar on September 06, 2012, 08:13:50 am
It appears on Marine Traffic AIS that at 0910 this morning MSC Flaminia is making way without assistance from her tugs !!!which all appear to be following astern, or could it be that the AIS Transponder Data is incorrect !!


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: PHa on September 06, 2012, 10:10:49 am
@ brimar: Actual (12:06 UTC+1) no AIS-Signal from MSC FLAMINIA available. And no AIS-signals from any tugs involved with this salvage. Very Strange.

As per Maritime Bulletin of "odin" the situation is as follows:

quote
September 6 morning: MSC Flaminia and tugs passed the narrowest part of English Channel, Strait of Dover, and entered North sea. Belgium Coast Guard ship SPN 09 and Navy ship Stern are escorting the convoy.
unquote

But also no AIS from belgian Ready Duty Ship "STERN A 963" and Belgian coastguard ship "SPN 09".
brgds
Peter


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: Captain Ted on September 06, 2012, 10:55:16 am
what I don,t get,,why it is so important that AIS don,t show or not ? To keep the gossip going ?  To make sure that wild stories keep circulating ?
I mean it is nothing new to the shipping industrie that containers are virtually uncontrolled loaded, because if it would be controlled and loaded as per regulation (ISPS: Master and crew have to assure that containers a checked before loaded !!! more or less in that workding) ships would be days in port,,if not weeks.


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: brimar on September 06, 2012, 12:51:26 pm
Ha Ha Capt Ted,I just knew you would take the bait and i'll reel you in when public AIS was mentioned on this thread .
         No not looking to ciculate wild stories but just simply interested in the progress of the vessel. I like the majority of members on this Thread are as the site is named 'Shipspotting' and this thread is a forum about the MSC Flaminia. Public AIS is freely available to watch the progress of this vessel whether you like it or not.
 
        Most members on this site are aware of your disapproval of 'PUBLIC AIS' which you have voiced on previous threads and I respect your reasons for that, however please don't 'Tar everyone with the same brush'  as 'Wild Story Hunters' when an item of real shipping interest comes to the forefront.
        I do hasten to add Capt Ted that the opening sentence to my post was written in a light hearted way and hope that you took it in that context.I will also add that I find your contributions to this site very interesting and most of all giving a very professional view to the Thread. . .'Keep them coming Sir'
                              Cheers,
                              Brimar   


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: miraflores on September 06, 2012, 02:33:04 pm
There was all the time an AIS signal of the involved tugs Carlo Magno, Fairmount Expedition and the dutch coast guard vessel ARCA.

http://i46.tinypic.com/vd1xj5.jpg


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: Captain Ted on September 06, 2012, 03:00:43 pm
Brimar
your point taken,, I dislike the AIS system for the sole reason that it is too often misused,,and not only from common users like here on the site, and here are plenty who use it res[onsibly (Remember the guy who ranted about a tanker for weeks here in a forum !!!)
But,,if you are interested in AIS and reports as such,,watch N24 (german channel TV,,) had a very interesting report on the Concordia,, beside interviews of Cooks/kitchenhelpers/and passengers (which demanded personal attention by the capt during the disaster)not ONE officer/engineer or even the Capt by itself were interviewed. Of course things got terribly wrong there,,no doubts about that,,, but also right,,if the capt would not, as it seems , after the grounding would have kept the ship on the rocks, we might have seens a few hundred or more dead peoples. Remember, only a few cables off the coast is very deep water. A capesizing there would have resulted in a tremendous amount of death!!!!
AIS is partial a good systems,,when used by peoples in the profession where it was designed for. It was not designed and implemented for anyone who could access it via personal computer.
Just imagine, you get a AIS by law into your car and right away the whole world can look where you go, and that all under the umbrella of safety and security. Not with one word was the CONTROLING effect mentioned which it atually is.
 


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: brimar on September 06, 2012, 05:30:57 pm
Thanks for your welcome information Capt Ted and your personal views regarding Public AIS which is very fair comment. Cheers
 


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: Henning Brauwers on September 08, 2012, 04:31:38 pm
Hi,

there was in various forums repeatedly the rumor that AIS on the Tugs & MSC Flaminia had been switched off on purpose, I read it several times. Also on that page of the russian journalist and seafarer.
People have to understand that the range of AIS is limited to something between 15- 60 nm depending on the weather conditions and of the hight of the antennas. Similiar to the range of VHF radio. In the Red Sea you could talk from Bab el mandeb to the entrance of the Gulf of Suez, which is way beyond the normal range. In other area's just within the line of sight. All depending on the weather conditions.







Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: Captain Ted on September 08, 2012, 10:12:22 pm
As matter of fact,, if I would be in charge of the whole Flaminia operation first I would do declare the AIS as inoperable and switch it off !!!!


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: Kelvin Davies on September 09, 2012, 02:31:39 am
Whether you like AIS or dislike it, in the case of MSC Flaminia, we seem to be getting into the weird world of conspiracy theories!
The signal, as mentioned above, has gone in and out of range at times. It is available right now, with the convoy steaming west at 2 knots, about 25 miles west of Heligoland.
Henning makes a good point about the range of signals.
I have had problems with radio installations (VHF) in Doha, picking up signals from Pakistan!
And, during the Korean war, my father who was a signalman in the Royal Navy, got into trouble in the North Sea when picking up and passing on radio signals from the wrong ships! He was receiving traffic from many hundreds of miles away and I believe it was one of the first examples encountered of radio tunnelling.
tricky stuff sometimes but I make a living out of it!
Kelvin


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: Henning Brauwers on September 09, 2012, 03:28:12 am
Hi,

this link : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_Identification_System
explains the system in details. More or less.


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: PHa on September 09, 2012, 08:16:33 am
As matter of fact,, if I would be in charge of the whole Flaminia operation first I would do declare the AIS as inoperable and switch it off !!!!

Sorry, Capt. Ted. This is a very public matter. Not only of a german shipowner. You should know the frisian tidal shallows from the Netherlands up to Denmark are world heritage of nature full of rare birds, seals and plenty of other animals. And the whole region is the biggest tourist ressort of dutch, german and danish tourist industry. We here all love this great place of the north sea and we are not willing to accept that the tidal shallows to be covered in dirt by a chemicals and oils and other bad stuffs.
Regards
Peter


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: kasco on September 09, 2012, 12:42:21 pm
As matter of fact,, if I would be in charge of the whole Flaminia operation first I would do declare the AIS as inoperable and switch it off !!!!
What is it about AIS that you dislike?


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: brimar on September 09, 2012, 01:01:19 pm
Hi Kasco,
         Just to let you know that I think Capt Ted has already answered your question on a previous post on this thread (post no 49 on sept 6th)
                       Cheers . . Brian   


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: Captain Ted on September 09, 2012, 01:51:20 pm
Peter / Kasco

just read above postings,, how often already,, AIS gone,, oh AIS here,,what they doing,, where they going etcetc,,, and all asked/questioned/stated from peoples who in general did seemingly not have even the slightest idea what AIS really was invented for or how it works.
As before said, I don,t dislike AIS in general, I dislike the DOOMSAY theories which are made up by incompetent peoples (i.e. amateurs) who do not have even an idea what in reality
happens but comment on anything what they read or read not into it.
AIS is sure a system which is used by a lot of peoples responsibly but also often not. Look plain at the Concordia disaster , the last passengers were not off the vessel and wild theories based on AIS readings were circulated, also in the forum here.
Let pros handle the case and as long politicans are not involving them (like the Prestige case or the Phallas case at Amrum which both led to final disaster after politicans screwed it up) everything is fine.
One wonders sometimes on certain comments or postings what those peoples see from their living room chairs what the pros seemingly don,t see who dealing with it at the very same moment.


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: Robert Smith on September 09, 2012, 02:36:22 pm
Well said Capt. Ted !

 >:(


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: Tuomas Romu on September 09, 2012, 07:08:43 pm
Public AIS is a nice thing. However, it's pretty annoying when people post new threads every time a ship deviates from its normal route, not to mention bigger conspiracy theories.


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: Andreas Schlatterer on September 09, 2012, 07:29:05 pm
Hello together

Capt.Ted 100% agree with you.

Best regards

Capesize


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: Henning Brauwers on September 10, 2012, 01:46:03 am
Hi,

@Capt.Ted : 1+


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: PHa on September 10, 2012, 07:56:10 am
Good Morning!

MSC "FLAMINIA" at new Jade-Weser-Port (JWP) Wilhelmshaven (Germany):

http://www.havariekommando.de/presse/bildergalerie/2012_08_20/DSC_0009.JPG

Regards Peter


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: Fred Vloo on September 10, 2012, 08:22:24 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bw3s_gHbKv0

Thanks to our German fellow shipspotters.

And lets hope people don't start speculate from what they see on the footage.
Maybe we should stop uploading video too, because we don't want all these stupid noobs on this forum speculating or having an opinion based on nothing.

Whahahaha


Cheers Fred


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: kasco on September 10, 2012, 11:55:21 am
Captain Ted:
I view AIS as a source of information the same as this site provides me with information. I would like to believe that the more information that I have the more able I am to make an informed opinion. You point to the incident with the Concordia as a example of what is wrong with the information that was received in real time. So I would like to pose this question to you:

What possible reason can a Master put forward for running his vessel aground at cruising speed unless she was being beached at a breakers yard?


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: stantheman on September 10, 2012, 12:09:40 pm
Good point Fred!
Wow! That was an intense fire! Looks like part of the deck is gone too!
No wonder they were concerned with stability. Wonder if she will be rebuilt? ;D


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: kasco on September 10, 2012, 12:50:36 pm
There is now another container vessel on fire, Flinter Aland.


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: mooringman on September 10, 2012, 01:43:43 pm
It is not the "Flinter Aland". It is the MV"Amsterdam Bridge" on fire,i think she is on Mumbai road now in India.


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: Robert Smith on September 10, 2012, 01:53:20 pm
Kasco - there's a Dutch saying which freely translated says "The best sailors can be found ashore". FYI the "Flinter Aland" is moored in Terneuzen pending investigations on an accident which happened over the weekend. Do you ever consider how valuable your "informed opinion"  would be to the rest of the world ?

 ::)



Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: Hannes van Rijn on September 11, 2012, 11:25:00 am
Flaminia arrives in Jade Weser Port

THE BADLY fire-damaged container ship MSC Flaminia and its accompanying tugs arrived safely in the German port of Wilhelmshaven’s Jade Weser Port yesterday evening after an incident-free week-long transit through the English Channel.

The vessel, accompanied by three tugs, was given authorisation to proceed to the port after undergoing a final inspection at a designated anchorage off the Heligoland islands, where it arrived on Saturday.

Vessel manager Reederei NSB said that the vessel left the anchorage at 0830 hours yesterday after inspectors had confirmed that it was safe to continue its journey to Jade Weser Port, where it arrived at 1730 hours.

NSB said that it would start as soon as possible to search for the crew member who went missing after fire broke out aboard the vessel, followed by an explosion, while it was crossing the Atlantic on 14 July. It said that it would also be carrying out an investigation into the cause of the fire, which is still unknown.

“These investigations will approximately last for one week,” the company said. “Afterwards, the unloading of the vessel can be started.”

The MSC Flaminia – which was carrying 2,876 containers, including 151 containing hazardous substances, when the fire broke out – began its transit of the English Channel on 2 September after the German authorities put an end to more than two weeks of uncertainty by agreeing to provide it with a place of refuge.

Source:IHS


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: kasco on September 11, 2012, 11:59:05 am
Kasco - there's a Dutch saying which freely translated says "The best sailors can be found ashore". FYI the "Flinter Aland" is moored in Terneuzen pending investigations on an accident which happened over the weekend. Do you ever consider how valuable your "informed opinion"  would be to the rest of the world ?

 ::)


I apologize for identifying the vessel Flinter Aland and not the vessel Amsterdam Pride as the one that was on fire.


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: manzanares on September 17, 2012, 05:27:32 pm
Captain Ted:
I view AIS as a source of information the same as this site provides me with information. I would like to believe that the more information that I have the more able I am to make an informed opinion. You point to the incident with the Concordia as a example of what is wrong with the information that was received in real time. So I would like to pose this question to you:

What possible reason can a Master put forward for running his vessel aground at cruising speed unless she was being beached at a breakers yard?

To prevent more deaths if the ship had sunk/capsized in deep water


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: PHa on September 18, 2012, 03:04:31 pm
Good evening,
here are updated news regarding "MSC FLAMINIA" at berth Jade-Weser-Port of Wilhelmshaven (Germany): After finishing investigations of public prosecutor and police re. dead and missing crewmembers, now the concept of discharge of the (partily damaged and destroyed) cargo is ready to start and published by the CENTRAL COMMAND FOR MARITIME EMERGENCIES GERMANY as follows:

"At first the superstructure of the MSC FLAMINIA will be cleaned, following a decision of
all the experts from the Central Command for Maritime Emergencies (CCME) (German:
Havariekommando), from the authorities on site and from the shipping company. Presumably
the cleaning work can start this week. It is expected to take about five days. All
cabins and areas of work in the superstructure will be cleaned thoroughly. If the area
passes the following survey of safe working conditions, it will be approved for day-today
operations.
The concept of discharge, drawn by Germanischer Lloyd, is completed. In order to ensure
the stability of the ship, containers and the water for fire-fighting are discharged in
equal measure. The containers on which an elevated temperature has been detected
have priority. After this the containers with dangerous goods are following.
Because of the surveys on board by the experts from CCME and the thorough comparison
of the loading list, the stowage plan and the list of dangerous goods the number
increased by two to 153 containers. The two additional containers contain vehicle parts
and cosmetic products.
First surveys have shown that the water for fire-fighting is less toxic than supposed. To
prove them, the results are currently assessed by some other experts.
Meanwhile also the first part of the concept of discharge for the damaged cargo is on
hand. In the first instance the appropriate containers are planned to be taken off board
in kind of a tub."

regards Peter


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: PHa on September 18, 2012, 06:04:29 pm
"MSC FLAMINIA"’s hazardous cargo floats towards Irish coast:

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/ships-hazardous-cargo-floats-towards-irish-coast-207739.html

Thanks to Tim for this info.

regards Peter


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: Captain Ted on September 18, 2012, 09:31:36 pm
Kasco
Lets establish one point first.   Was it the master who grounded the vessel or was it done by STCW certified OOW,s ? (Officer Of the Watch). Nowhere it is established or proven yet that the Master gave the order/instruction to veer of course and ground the ship !!

I pointed one thing out, It seems viewing the AIS track, that after the grounding, done NOT by him but by the OOW that the vessel, if that is the case, that through the maneuvre the capsizing of the vessel was prevented by keeping it on the rocks.
Let me counter ask mr Kasco,
What you as seemigly fully informed interested party, think about that the ship may be came also from a port, and maybe that the Master did not sleep/rest a whole while. Or do you believe that duing the port stay the Master sleeps all the time. I don,t say it is that way, but for such matters also a watch order book exists. In this the Master usually gives clear instructions what to do if he is not on the bridge, i.e. NAVIGATE SAFE,keep sharp look-out, use all means available to establish constant position,etcetcetc, which is usually also defined in the STANDING ORDERS which each OOW signs on his first day on a ship
(Also when in my personal opinion it is rediculous that a MASTER has to tell his OOW,s to navigste the ship in a safe manner,, THATS THEIR DAMN JOB!!!!
That is like telling a bus driver every morning,, by the way,,you have to drive the bus as per traffic regulations !!!!
Reminds me a lot of the Exxon Valdez case in alaska,,where the Master left written instructions to the OOW, which the OOW clearly violated whith the knowledge of the VTS (The OOW asked for permission to divert course from the Coast Station and never changed course back and therefore grounded). The Master gave clear WRITTEN instruction to call him if anything out of the norm happens. The 2nd Mate, holder of a STCW OOW certifiaction, grounded the vessel and the Captain got killed by the media for the 2nd mates no complience of written instructions and the safe navigation rules !!!!
here it seems to be if not the same at least awfully close to such a matter. So far as I know the Master was not on the bridge during the initial grounding, therefore one can conclude that a certified OOW did the grounding and he was not alone on the bridge.

Whatever went wrong is terrible enough, but lets wait what really happened and what instructions/orders were given, hopefully for him, in written.

And ones more Mr Kasco,, I am NOT against AIS,,I am against peoples, special amateurs, who reading into any move they see or seem to see the next catastrophe happening
and as someone above stated already more or less,,,the best and most knowledgable sailors sitting always ashore on their sofa in front of the TV.
So lets the expert find out how far the Master really did wrong or did not, until then may be we should lean back and await the results of the seacourts etc etc involved. But one thing I guarantte now already,,you will NOT see 4 weeks headlines when in the end the Master is aquitted in this case !!!


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: Peadar on September 18, 2012, 09:47:14 pm
What's the latest on the MSC Flaminia? Haven't seen or heard anything for a few days. Is she still afloat and burning? ???
Some Empty Chemical Containers being towed ashore at Castletownbere Fishin Port South West Ireland 3 towed in by the Tug Ocean bank on 14th a further 2 yesterday the 17th tug gone back out looking for more , those containers were found 120 miles west of Dursey Head


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: PHa on September 24, 2012, 03:45:14 pm
Good evening,
Police Office Stade (Polizei-Inspektion Stade) and district attorney of Hamburg (Staatsanwaltschaft) published photo (press release) with a view into the cargo holds with damaged containers at berth of Jade-Weser-Port, Wilhelmshaven. Photo dated 19.9.2012.

http://www.das-floss-der-medusa.de/assets/plugindata/w2dblg27f385f47b1f66b954e7dd7614e0d890/pic1348501200.jpg

Regards Peter 


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: Northkehdinger on September 26, 2012, 05:00:52 pm
Hello Peter

Thank you very much for posting the Picture !

It shows very well how it looks like at the vessel now !

Very scary ,......


brgds


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: PHa on September 28, 2012, 09:37:40 am
Good Morning!
German broadcasting reports, that unloading of containers, damaged by fire, will begin on Friday, the 29th September, 2012.
Regards Peter


Title: Re: MSC Flaminia
Post by: Hannes van Rijn on September 29, 2012, 05:50:01 am
UNLOADING of boxes from the scorched MSC Flaminia is to begin today in Germany’s Jade Weser Port, said the ship’s manager, Reederei NSB.

It also said that German company Nehlsen GmbH & Co had been contracted to carry out the unloading and that contracts for handling the ship and its cargo had also been signed with Jade Weser Port and Terminal Eurogate.

Meanwhile, the vessel is still being cleaned, after which a new crew, already on stand-by in Wilhelmshaven, is due to board.

NSB said it could not yet make any statement about the cause of the fire, which broke out in mid-Atlantic on 14 July; two seafarers were killed.

The investigation was still in progress, it added, and analysis of the data collected aboard would take more time.

Source IHS