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Author Topic: Icebreaking future on the St-Lawrence ;private larger tugs or medium CCGS?  (Read 6437 times)
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Jean Hemond
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« on: February 01, 2014, 03:38:17 pm »

 I would like to launch this debate!

However I remain for the time being quite unsure about this issue. It was recently brought to light by the St-Lawrence Shipowners Association that the CCGS fleet is in bad shape and not quite up to expectations for both emergencies and ice clearing duties.
 In my opinion large privately owned ice breaking tugs  like the Ocean Tundra or  more powerfull could, money wise, perform the task more efficiently as to  the ice maintenance on  St-Lawrence . It is  I think already largely the case for the harbours.  Fewer large icebreakers relocated from arctic to St- Lawrence for winter could assure the emergency situations that seems to arise every few winters.

I googled for similar situations about the use of large ice breaking tugs around the world but it doesn't make sense as of yet.
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Paul Bradshaw
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« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2014, 10:43:56 pm »

Private is for profit.
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Evgeniy .
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« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2014, 11:03:03 pm »

Hello, Jean!

I have found some articles about ice-breakers in Russian Federation for current winter.
 
There is article about plans for current winter. There is mentioned that nuclear-powered ice- breaker "50 Let Pobedy" 'll assist to vessels from west ice limit to Primorsk oil terminal & St. Petersburg plt station:
https://translate.google.com.ua/translate?hl=ru&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.meteoinfo.ru%2Fnews%2F1-2009-10-01-09-03-06%2F8267-10122013-

At present moment ice-breaker "50 Let Pobedy" is making way to St. Petersburg acc to marinetraffic
http://www.marinetraffic.com/ru/ais/details/ships/273316240

There is latest report about ice condition in ports of RF:
https://translate.google.com.ua/translate?hl=ru&sl=ru&tl=en&prev=_dd&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.korabel.ru%2Fnews%2Fcomments%2Finformaciya_o_ledovoy_obstanovke_i_ledokolnyh_provodkah_v_zamerzayuschih_portah_rf_na_30_yanvarya.html

Hope that 'll be interesting for you.

Regards, Yevgeniy
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Tuomas Romu
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« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2014, 11:47:51 pm »


I googled for similar situations about the use of large ice breaking tugs around the world but it doesn't make sense as of yet.

In Finland and Sweden, the state takes care of fairway icebreaking and smaller tugboats owned by private companies are only used in ports (and one the rare occasion when the state-owned icebreakers decline assistance due to inadequate ice class). However, the largest icebreaking tugboat in Finland (Zeus with 7,370 hp) has been chartered by the state in the past years to help with fairway icebreaking.

As for CCG, I don't think any of their icebreakers can be considered "true" escort icebreakers.
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Jean Hemond
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« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2014, 02:45:44 pm »

 Yes escort this is the main task ! See the report of CCGS uses of Escort Icebreakers!
http://www.ccg-gcc.gc.ca/eng/CCG/Ice_Levels_Of_Service.

I know there were at Group Ocean about 7 0r 8 years ago plans and a scale model for a large  escort tug  apparently much larger than the actual Ocean Tundra  .
The name Thor is inscribed on the hull in the hall of the Company.
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Tuomas Romu
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« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2014, 05:10:53 pm »

The problem with the CCG icebreakers is that most of them have two propellers and just a single rudder. That means that they are not very maneuverable and particularly CCGS Terry Fox hardly turns in ice. Also, they lack the possibility for close towing (but then again, it is not used in Canada).

This is how modern icebreakers cut free a beset vessel:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLpx08KOvnQ

Ocean Tundra looks okay, but all those sharp chines lower her performance.
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Jean Hemond
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« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2014, 05:47:12 pm »

Sorry Yevgeniy! I am unable to access this information my russian is non existant!
I know Russia is already at the forefront of today icebreaking technology.

And Tuomas; This interest of mine is for smaller icebreakers design that could do the work of the  getting old medium  CCGS ice breakers used on the St-Lawrence. That much more efficiently because they would be  able to get in shallow water where the ice gets stuck. Their capacity of working around docks and ships thanks to azimuth thrusters. Breaking ice around a stuck ship with difficult to steer icebreaker is I imagine  no doubt a delicate task.  I still have doubts about impact and climbing on ice for the smaller ships.  The water pumps already used for fire figthing might be used for lubricating the ice along hulls even adding air bubbles but not in front of the pumps. Chines well designed are ok and save money.   Forming plates and furnacing them I believe is a thing of the past. there would be the need for the larger icebreaker in emergency situations as we encounter every few years very often in the same areas.
I notice that the Globe and Mail two years ago blamed the  CCGS cracked engines on their reversing propellers in ice. They should have known they are diesel electric ships. The problems of their early days systems  were more related to condensation. The engines cracks are, to my older and limited knowledge, to be blamed on the engine design and their seating.
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Tuomas Romu
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« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2014, 07:55:26 pm »

I know Russia is already at the forefront of today icebreaking technology.

Only when they use Finnish technology and know-how... Wink

Chines well designed are ok and save money. Forming plates and furnacing them I believe is a thing of the past.

If you refer to the complex nondevelopable (double curvature) hull form of icebreaking ships, you couldn't be further from the truth. Just look at any modern icebreaker.

The problem is that particularly North American commercial shipyards are simply not capable of manufacturing such hull forms economically.
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Jean Hemond
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« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2014, 12:55:41 am »

 Agreed Thuomas!  I wrongly assumed  Russia was now about independent from Finnish yards contrary to what it was 15 20 years ago! Engineers move around a lot! In my youth ice breaking technology took a large place here to open the St-Lawrence winter navigation the money for Marshal plan exports was behind the investments.

 For formed plates I couldn't agree more with you about American know-how! I did worked, the old manner, scribing the mold-loft floor doing templates for The Louis St-Laurent stern furnaced plates. Now I believe forming plates it is inexistant or extremely  costly in America !
20 years ago I worked with an inventor  using a single pressure point roller press (at the time small scale) cold forming plates ( half inch thick) manoeuvred by hand.  After several meetings an demos it was concluded  that too much money was required against the trend and interest of the downsizing  North American shipbuilding industry.
 
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Notchy
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« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2014, 10:46:43 pm »

The Canadian government has starved the Canadian Coast Guard of money for 10 years, and the ice-breakers are all at the end of there life. Makes it easy for politicians to say "We cannot afford to replace the ice-breakers; private industry will have to do it." That way the government can let the well-paid CCG workforce atrophy, and replace them with cheaper labour, hired on a seasonal basis.
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Jean Hemond
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« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2014, 02:59:09 am »

 Thank you Notchy! I concur with your opinion on this subject. But things change and Government and us, as tax payers, must  now focus on the new frontier, the Canadian Arctic.

 60 years ago the money from foreign banking sources financed Canada as a Country to built and maintain the St-Lawrence Seaway open for the needs of Europe and Asia. This launched the Canadian economy in a grand state.

 What is new, to my mind, is the fact that all the investments including the companies  building the land based infrastructures we pay for Arctic resources are now residents of fiscal paradises.  If we go on doing nothing or as usual only working on plans that never materialize all the money will end back in those islands. Save for a limited number of petty jobs .

 Our politicians will use excuses about remaining indecisive between investing south or north . And they will press they are too short on cash.  ( For my part I think it has only to do, with whom they represent really)
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Les bateaux du Québec
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« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2014, 05:36:53 pm »

There is an interesting article about this subject in the maritime magazine web site:

http://www.maritimemag.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=385:canadas-marine-industry-slams-inadequate-coast-guard-winter-icebreaking-service-on-st-lawrence-river&catid=4:news&Itemid=6


On my side, I really enjoy this busy winter for canadian icebreaker.  I thinks that even with more ccgs, more recent ships, when the wheather is extreme cold like this winter, it's normal to have some problems with ice conditions.
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Paul Bradshaw
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« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2014, 01:14:41 am »

"residents of fiscal paradises" I love it. Good to see some engagement!!! This conversation actually started before the 'ice hit the bow'.

http://forum.shipspotting.com/index.php/topic,12218.0.html
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